Magneto and Genocide
- Thread starter MrBlud
- Start date
I think erasing a longstanding character's innate Jewishness is a really bad idea and sends really bad messages.
I'm really hoping this isn't in bad taste to answer this question...
First off, when the character was originally created, he wasn't a Holocaust survivor. Chris Claremont's run established him as being a Holocaust survivor, and seeing as Claremont is in many ways the single biggest writer for X-Men, any attempt to remove that backstory is going to be met with universal revolt.
Second, I'd argue that Magneto being the survivor of a terrible event certainly helps you to sympathize with him. In his mind, humanity is going to take every excuse it can to attack the "other", and unfortunately, he's not wrong. Jews were one of the many "others" that were targeted by the Holocaust, and mutants are a new "other". In his mind, mutants have every right to defend themselves, and if that involves wiping out baseline humans before they can wipe out mutants (or stand by and allow for said wiping out), then so be it. Please note that I do not condone such thinking, I am merely explaining Magneto's logic.
Anyway, Magneto no longer being linked to the Holocaust at this point would be met with near-universal, if not completely universal, complaint. I've no objection to non-Holocaust genocides having attention brought to them, but I imagine that if a comic book writer wanted to bring attention to these things, they would not change an established character's origins from being associated with one well-known genocide to a different, lesser-known genocide. Better they create a new character.
First off, when the character was originally created, he wasn't a Holocaust survivor. Chris Claremont's run established him as being a Holocaust survivor, and seeing as Claremont is in many ways the single biggest writer for X-Men, any attempt to remove that backstory is going to be met with universal revolt.
Second, I'd argue that Magneto being the survivor of a terrible event certainly helps you to sympathize with him. In his mind, humanity is going to take every excuse it can to attack the "other", and unfortunately, he's not wrong. Jews were one of the many "others" that were targeted by the Holocaust, and mutants are a new "other". In his mind, mutants have every right to defend themselves, and if that involves wiping out baseline humans before they can wipe out mutants (or stand by and allow for said wiping out), then so be it. Please note that I do not condone such thinking, I am merely explaining Magneto's logic.
Anyway, Magneto no longer being linked to the Holocaust at this point would be met with near-universal, if not completely universal, complaint. I've no objection to non-Holocaust genocides having attention brought to them, but I imagine that if a comic book writer wanted to bring attention to these things, they would not change an established character's origins from being associated with one well-known genocide to a different, lesser-known genocide. Better they create a new character.
1. I agree that trying to take away him being a Jew during the holocaust would (rightly) be met with a lot of backlash.
2. I believe the original animated series didn't specifically bring up WW II. It had flashbacks to him and Xavier fighting in some unnamed war. But if you knew the comics and listened to some of what he said, it was still easy enough to read between the lines.
So in answer to the questions asked, yes it is integral. Though like Echo said, it wasn't originally a part of the character and didn't come around until Chris Claremont, it is no less integral.
Does it have to be the holocaust? I mean, Marvel could try to change it. But again, I'd imagine it would be met with a lot of backlash.
2. I believe the original animated series didn't specifically bring up WW II. It had flashbacks to him and Xavier fighting in some unnamed war. But if you knew the comics and listened to some of what he said, it was still easy enough to read between the lines.
So in answer to the questions asked, yes it is integral. Though like Echo said, it wasn't originally a part of the character and didn't come around until Chris Claremont, it is no less integral.
Does it have to be the holocaust? I mean, Marvel could try to change it. But again, I'd imagine it would be met with a lot of backlash.
The biggest issue with keeping him linked to the holocaust(and I assume what prompted the question) is the sliding scale of time in comics. In 20 years, everyone who was alive at that time will be in extreme old age or have passed on, barring some science miracle. The sliding scale of time that lets them keep using characters that should be all rights be too old by this point in the modern day, means Magneto will still be around, but a 100 year old Magneto(who looks 40-60) won't pass muster for a lot of folks. So unless they throw in time travel, have him "reborn" in a younger body, or really change up events in the timeline, what will they do with that bit of Magneto's background then? Particularly if there's yet another reboot and they need to re-establish him fresh?
(And of note, when they add him into the MCU, he should already be at least 80 or so, since we know WW2 happened at the right time due to Cap, and the MCU seems to try to stay roughly in sync with real time)
(And of note, when they add him into the MCU, he should already be at least 80 or so, since we know WW2 happened at the right time due to Cap, and the MCU seems to try to stay roughly in sync with real time)
He's been de-aged at least once in the comics already. And as for the MCU, they could simply say that mutants have a slowed aging process. Is that really more fantastic than being able to control one of the four (known) fundamental forces in physics?
Hmm, interesting dilemma. I still think if they try to change it, it would meet with a lot of resistance.
What I would do if I were them, maybe not change his background yet, but also don't bring attention to it. Then when readers of the baby boomer through gen-X demographic are no longer a concern (dead/no longer part of the target demographic), do a continuity reboot where instead of being a Jew in Getmany, he was a mutant in Genosha.
What I would do if I were them, maybe not change his background yet, but also don't bring attention to it. Then when readers of the baby boomer through gen-X demographic are no longer a concern (dead/no longer part of the target demographic), do a continuity reboot where instead of being a Jew in Getmany, he was a mutant in Genosha.
They could always ignore the sliding scale of time and have the comics take place in a chronally vague bubble. It works for Batman.
Of course, seeing as how Death is an actual being in the Marvel Universe, I could see her saying this about any of the X-Men characters...
"Aww hell no! Do you people have any idea how much paperwork you cause me? No! I'm not messing with any of your stupid asses any more. Go back. Just...go back and give your friends a message for me. Welcome to immortality, bitches! I'm done with you! C'mon, Deadpool. Let's go get some chimichangas."
"Aww hell no! Do you people have any idea how much paperwork you cause me? No! I'm not messing with any of your stupid asses any more. Go back. Just...go back and give your friends a message for me. Welcome to immortality, bitches! I'm done with you! C'mon, Deadpool. Let's go get some chimichangas."
Someone who was young during WWII being virile and kickass in the present day in the Marvel universe? Insanity.
I'm just tired of there always being an asterisk next to the noble attempt to increase representation in comics that reads "doesn't apply to Jews."
Magneto is someone who those of us who had relatives who died in the Holocaust, those that managed to survive, could find some representation in. He's someone whose Jewishness is at the core of who he is, not because he's a zealot, but because the world forced him to cling to that part of him. He's someone whose motivations regarding Mutants become understandable, and it's a lesson that we cannot let the fear and hatred the Holocaust wrought on our people consume us.
He's one of the very best Jewish comic book characters, period. Hero or villain. And in an age when we want to increase representation in media and shine lights on historical injustices in the hope that it'll lead to a better future for all... in that environment... ya wanna strip Magneto of his Jewish identity and the role the Holocaust played in making him who he is?
No. F'ing. Thank you.
I'm just tired of there always being an asterisk next to the noble attempt to increase representation in comics that reads "doesn't apply to Jews."
Magneto is someone who those of us who had relatives who died in the Holocaust, those that managed to survive, could find some representation in. He's someone whose Jewishness is at the core of who he is, not because he's a zealot, but because the world forced him to cling to that part of him. He's someone whose motivations regarding Mutants become understandable, and it's a lesson that we cannot let the fear and hatred the Holocaust wrought on our people consume us.
He's one of the very best Jewish comic book characters, period. Hero or villain. And in an age when we want to increase representation in media and shine lights on historical injustices in the hope that it'll lead to a better future for all... in that environment... ya wanna strip Magneto of his Jewish identity and the role the Holocaust played in making him who he is?
No. F'ing. Thank you.
Yes, Cap was frozen in time so he got to skip all that intervening time without aging - which I was acknowledging when I brought up that they'd need to de-age him, reincarnate him, or have some time travel shenanigans happen if they wanted to keep that. (Pulling a Batman and just hand-waving it may be an option too as mentioned, but a bit harder one with how tightly the Marvel continuinty ties into itself, unless they do the same across the board) And the continuation of the cartoon even did make the connection explicit(though it also explicitly takes place int he late 90s).
But that ultimately would be the only reason to even consider it(and the entire reason this thread was made, I believe) - in 20 years or so, when they reboot X-Men yet again and want to keep using Magneto, they'll need to address the age issue. And Blud seems to be asking what other options are there besides temporal shenanigans or biological shenanigans, if any.
But that ultimately would be the only reason to even consider it(and the entire reason this thread was made, I believe) - in 20 years or so, when they reboot X-Men yet again and want to keep using Magneto, they'll need to address the age issue. And Blud seems to be asking what other options are there besides temporal shenanigans or biological shenanigans, if any.
It's comics. Shenanigans to keep the status quo intact is a time honoured tradition.
Agreed, though less because I have any relatives who perished in the Holocaust and more because I believe that if you're going to have representation, you need to represent as many as possible in as many ways as possible.
On a related note, I find it annoying that it was apparently okay that Magneto appear in the Fox-produced X-Men movies as an antagonist, but everyone's up in arms about a Jewish mutant superheroine showing up in the next Captain America movie. It's okay for a Jew to be a sympathetic bad guy, but it's not okay for a Jew to be a good guy? Talk about double standards.
Another thing... this doesn't just apply to Magneto. How long has Peter Parker been Spider-Man? How long has Bruce Wayne been Batman?
Comic timelines are insane on the face of it because if anyone wanted to retain any semblance of realism these characters would have been replaced multiple times over by now.
But that hasn't happened. People like their favourites sticking around.
So rather than trying to tie one's self in knots trying to make that which cannot logically work work by logic, why not just embrace the vague timeless aesthetic? Batman, Archer for cripe's sake... the notion of setting stories in a vague mishmash of eras helps with flexibility and allows you to keep ALL of these characters around without having to engage in mental gymnastics to justify it. It should be the industry standard.
The thing is, as I said, this is not unique to Magneto. Everyone's timescale is crazy, but for Magneto it's a problem?
An "issue" with so many quick fixes that are time honoured traditions in comic books but with Magneto it's a problem?
Hell, a Holocaust survivor being a badass in the present isn't even in the top twenty insane things that have happened in the Marvel comics universe. This is a universe where a giant purple man tried to use the power glove to kill half the universe so he could bone Death.
And Magneto being a Holocaust survivor isn't "realistic"? Spare me.
It's a lot of this kind of thing that makes me question the "we just have to ask because of the timeline" explanation.
Nah, that's an easy fix with at least five viable options. There could be an ulterior motive here
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That's exactly the sliding timescale thing I was talking about. Something that happened to him in the comics in the 70s, is referanced as happening 8 years ago in the 90s, then maybe in a 2010s comic it now happened 10 years ago. Events int he past are naturally moved up SO they can keep these heroes around wihtout explaining their age.
But how well does that work with WORLD events if we're NOT going for the timeless angle? If the Punsiher(to choose the other war-related character besides Cap and Magneto I can think of) was in Vietnam 10 years ago, and the comic is ostensibly taking place in 2030, that means Vietnam happened in 2020. That's why if it needs to be kept, either we're dealing with temporal shenanigans such as slowed aging or freezing them in a glacier for 100 years, or you don't ever set an actual date and year and try to dance around it.
It is for DC. Marvel is the one who leverages the sliding timescale the most as they tied their characters to real world places and events far more. No idea on Image and the rest.
Punisher was tied to Vietnam as a Vet with PTSD, from what I recall. He has the same issue, honestly, in terms of timescales. Does anyone know how his situation has been addressed?
I'd prefer if you would not cast aspersions and assume I'm antisemitic just because I happened to try to explain what the question was getting at(and judging by the likes, it seems my reading was correct here?) If you want to accuse us of that, come out and say it.It's a lot of this kind of thing that makes me question the "we just have to ask because of the timeline" explanation.
Nah, that's an easy fix with at least five viable options. There could be an ulterior motive here
To be clear: I have no problem with him being a survivor, I LIKE that aspect. It's been used very well. And yes, shenanigans are part and parcel of this, and will liekly be how they handle it. But apparently simply asking if there's any other solutions(which seems to be a resounding NO, which is perfectly fine) makes us Nazis?
*edit* Just thought of another real world event-related character - Nick Fury had a unit during WW2 I believe? Though they reinvented him after the MCU, so that's not relevant here.
Only kicked dogs (or foxes in this case) howl.
Yes I think there's a degree of antisemitism in the idea that Magneto being a Jewish Holocaust surviour is something that needs to be changed.
Out of all of the insane stuff that's happened in the Marvel comics timeline someone who survived the Holocaust being a major player in the present is "unrealistic." That all the comic book shenanigans that have been used to keep older characters around without a second thought suddenly warrant """serious discussion""" when the Jewish Holocaust survivor comes up.
And yes, I find it antisemitic that, in an era with a greater social emphasis on increasing minority visibility in media Magneto's Jewishness is deemed superficial and something that can be stripped away and replaced.
Whether or not that antisemitism is overt Jew hatred or more subtle and systemic where you simply don't think Jews and Jewish concerns are "important" is up to you.
But it does feel that way as a Jewish person, yes.
Yes, I feel kicked because I was TRYING to be helpful in clarifying intent of(and mostly add context to) the original poster. And I get attacked for it. Thanks for being an asshole and not even trying to apologize.
I'm not going to touch the rest of that because apparently I'm now antisemitic, despite the rest of my posting history, trying to be helpful, advocating for stuff, and all the rest of the good I've tried to do here.
I'm tired of antisemitism being given a free pass and treated as a "lesser" evil.
I'm tired of Jewish identity, Jewish safety, and Jewish issues being dismissed by people. I'm tired of assuming the best and having that faith thrown back in my face.
This is small potatoes in the grand scheme of things, but I'm tired of letting antisemitism get a pass for whatever bs reason is conjured up.
Not the first time.
My first two posts in this thread outlined why I felt it was important for Magneto to retain his Jewish identity and status as a Holocaust survivor. You even replied to the second one... and ignored all of that.
You're uninterested in actually hearing why people think this is a bad idea... and I'm going to be frank about that.
Would anyone consider reinventing Black, Hispanic, Muslim, or LGBTQ+ characters with those traits stripped away? No.
But for whatever reason some people think Magneto's Jewishness can be stripped away and reinvented. If those people earnestly don't believe they're antisemites they need to consider why they make an exception for Jewish characters in that regard.
Okay, fair here. Understandable.
I ignored that at the time because I AGREED with it, so I didn't feel a need to say anything about it at the time. Do I need to put it in specific words then?
1) Magneto is Jewish and a Holocaust survivor. I agree this is a good thing. It shines a light on it, makes sure it is not forgotten. It informs his motives.
2) Keeping this representation is a good thing
3) The reason I see Blud asking this question to even begin with is due to the sliding scale of time, so I posted as I see this as the only reason to even bring up the possibility in the first place. Specifically in a "okay, how do we address this?" even if it was horribly worded.
1 and 2 were never in question, as far as I'm concerned.
Is this clear enough?
I think clarity is key, especially when you're dealing with sensitive issues?
I guess the root of my frustrations is this...
Comic book science, space magic, mystical McGuffins... all of these things have been used to paper over these sorts of issues in the past and aside from a few snide chuckles at comic books doing comic book things they've been accepted because... that's just the medium. That's the genre.
Heck, X-Men Evolution (terribly underrated show) even addressed this point specifically by introducing some super science thing that Magneto was using to stave off the aging process. Like... this specific problem has been solved in a way entirely consistent with the standards of the medium.
But suddenly it's a concern with Magneto? I end up asking myself "why"?
This isn't my first rodeo with this topic. A friend of mine suggested Magneto could be reinvented as a Black South African who experienced the worst parts of Apartheid.
And it's like... yeah. And I could reinvent Black Panther as a Jewish guy. Hell, historically speaking a lot of the themes are similar!
But why would I try to take Black Panther's Black African identity from him and the representation that he is a symbol for? It seems like a bad thing to do to a character who Black people the world over have expressed admiration for, for what he represents.
So why is Magneto's Jewishness suddenly conditional and easy to change?
It doesn't make sense to me, especially when as I said, it's a problem that's been solved.
And when I ask myself "why is this only a problem with Magneto?" nasty implications start coming up.
And no, I don't think it's wrong to confront that stuff. I'd rightfully be accused of some nasty things if I was trying to argue a case about taking Black Panther's Blackness away.
I see so much championing of minority rights, concerns, and identity today that seems uncompromising and steadfast that suddenly becomes conditional and wishy washy when Jews are involved.
I see people who claim to stand for egalitarianism get cozy with antisemites and then have it leaked by those close to them that for all their "passion" about standing up against bigotries they just can't seem to find any compassion or empathy for Jews.
I think there's some degree of antisemitism that even good people accept due to systemic issues and I think, finally, we have to confront that stuff.
I'm truly sorry for accusing you of that, but the discussion here touch on very important topics to me. Why are Jewish characters' Jewishness considered malleable? What's the reasoning there?
And given everything else I felt it needed to be addressed.
But it did cross a line, was unfair, and I could have approached these issues better. My apologies.