Transformers: Age of the Primes toyline discussion || update: Toy Fair 2025: Vortex, Onyx Prime, Alchemist Prime, Excellion, Sideways, oh my

[lastmaximal]

I do find it kind of heartening that the stuff we thought we'd lose forever when FP lost the licence has been picked up by Hasbro, and even occasionally worked into the retail lines. Whatever we can say about this brand team, they care.

And if they do go through with this, MTO individual items sound more appealing than a full wave of Subscription Service figures you have to go all or nothing on, when it's maybe one or two you actually want.

I just hope availability -- once that gets clarified -- is better than it was for those. Which you'd think it would be, as retail run numbers would be different, but this isn't exactly a regular retail situation (apparently). Any comparison to the old club model is not one that gives me any comfort.

 

[Princess Viola]

have u people tried just living in america

/ssssssssssssssssssss

 

[lastmaximal]

And my point is still being missed. I'm saying that someone like looks like Optimus Prime in a Fur suit is released, his design looking so much like G1 Optimus Prime that he has marker lights on his chest, that you could sell him on that prime connection alone. Hell, do him as Nemesis Prime first, since that was an actual american release of his toy.

I feel that a lot of these discussions don't take into account enough that we're in an era of toylines that are at least half a parade of comparative randos. I'd argue Big Convoy is likely to be a better seller to even casuals than, say, Needlenose or Impactor or Slammer or Nucleous. "This toy and that are languishing on clearance" is hard to cite as an argument against a specific character when, well, so many toys across the board are meeting that eventuality.

Big Convoy at, say, Leader class -- I don't believe a Commander is needed unless there's extra stuff included, and even then I'd argue he's at least as sellable as Magmatron -- is not nearly the risk people make it out to be. There's even redeco potential as Nemesis Prime and Ultra Mammoth (if not Blue Big Convoy) so the mold can be (heh) maximized.

 

[Shadewing]

Everything you say about Big Convoy is every bit as true for Lio Convoy.

I don't feel like Leo Prime looks that much like Optimus, out side of the head and colors. Big Convoy, has head and colors, a window chest, some truck details, a removable matrix that actually looks like the Matrix rather then some blue dot in his chest. He's the closest to feel like G1 Prime reformated to have a beast mode.

 

[Tuxedo Prime]

have u people tried just living in america

/ssssssssssssssssssss

There are a couple of ways to parse that, nowadays.

 

[LordGigaIce]

Any comparison to the old club model is not one that gives me any comfort.

Getting Club stuff in Canada was a pain.

But I'd rather have Hasbro make an effort for this stuff than not try at all.

*points to Power Rangers*

 

[lastmaximal]

Getting Club stuff in Canada was a pain.

But I'd rather have Hasbro make an effort for this stuff than not try at all.

*points to Power Rangers*

Ehh. I mean. Yes, I'm not saying I'd rather they not do anything. But as CoffeeHorse has pointed out, it's not like it's this or nothing like it is for Power Rangers; this is the CEO going "there! That teat's not being milked yet! Get on it!"

And functionally, "they made this in a way I can't get to it" is not that different from "this doesn't exist". TFSS Toxitron might as well still be concept sketches for all the good its availability window did me and others, especially after all this time.

 

[Echowarrior]

And Big Convoy got a release in Universe.

Big Convoy's tooling was used for a release in Universe, but not as Big Convoy. I know, I'm splitting hairs here, but the details are everything.

 

[LordGigaIce]

But as CoffeeHorse has pointed out, it's not like it's this or nothing like it is for Power Rangers; this is the CEO going "there! That teat's not being milked yet! Get on it!"

lol I took it a completely different way. Hasbro's trying to right their financial ship and I'd appreciate it if my hobby didn't die.
So like... yeah... I have no love for a billion dollar company but I also don't wanna see Hasbro die? I donno man.

And functionally, "they made this in a way I can't get to it" is not that different from "this doesn't exist".

Man... this is a rumour about an idea that may or may not happen. We don't know if
this system will exist, much less what it may look like.

So yeah. I'm all for them trying things to both do more stuff with the brand and make some extra cash.

And if there are problems with it, then we'll talk about that when we get to those bridges.

 

[CoffeeHorse]

lol I took it a completely different way. Hasbro's trying to right their financial ship and I'd appreciate it if my hobby didn't die.

They just announced their best operating profit margin ever. The cost cutting is actually working.

 

[LordGigaIce]

They just announced their best operating profit margin ever. The cost cutting is actually working.

It is! Like... I don't think it's a bad thing if Cocks is telling brand teams to maximize revenue. If it results in more stuff we'd otherwise not get... I'm for it.

Of course, yeah. I want it to be easily accessible to everyone. If there are issues with availability then that sucks... but let's wait for all of this to actually happen before declaring it the second coming of FunPub's terrible availability.

 

[lastmaximal]

lol I took it a completely different way. Hasbro's trying to right their financial ship and I'd appreciate it if my hobby didn't die.
So like... yeah... I have no love for a billion dollar company but I also don't wanna see Hasbro die? I donno man.

I know you know this, but there are so many possible outcomes between "Hasbro does this potentially complicating, inconvenient thing this way" and "Hasbro dies".

They've been making ruthless moves to keep the money train on the tracks, and idk how sustainable some of these choices are long-term, but there are still a ton of directions their fortunes could go, positive ones included. This isn't some last gasp life support thing for the brand, and framing it like that in response to reservations about it is a bit disingenuous.

Man... this is a rumour about an idea that may or may not happen. We don't know if
this system will exist, much less what it may look like.

I was a bit confused as to why the bit you quoted was quoted, but I take it you saw my point; I'll move on.

Anyway, yes, this is a possibility at the moment. I don't see where I've discussed this as anything but.

Obviously everything I say is contingent on this happening? I didn't think I needed to append an "if this happens" to everything.

Am I identifying possible worst-case scenarios? Yes. Am I saying this is inevitably the one way this will happen? No. Have I noticed other factors from past experience and recent developments that don't necessarily bode well? Yes. Am I saying the fact that this COULD go down this way leaves me feeling uncertain and uneasy (If This Happens)? Yes. I have acknowledged that we barely know anything about this and i'll have firmer feelings either way once we know more. I don't think that means I can't have these reservations until then.

I'm fine to agree to disagree with you on my reservations. Ultimately I am hoping for a win-win solution. I WANT to give Hasbro my money for stuff. I'm just looking for feasible ways to do so that themselves aren't dealbreakers or laden with middlemen and price hoops. And I'm hoping this turns out to be something that has room for the likes of me.

But there are so many potential pitfalls, and so much exhaustion and trauma lingering from having been in those pits before. All I'm ultimately saying is that I hope it doesn't turn out like one of those, especially since it theoretically would have the platform and tools that would keep it from being hamstrung that way.

 

[LordGigaIce]

I was a bit confused as to why the bit you quoted was quoted, but I take it you saw my point; I'll move on.

Anyway, yes, this is a possibility at the moment. I don't see where I've discussed this as anything but.

Obviously everything I say is contingent on this happening? I didn't think I needed to append an "if this happens" to everything.

My point was this is a possibility that may happen.

Insisting that a MTO outlet will only result in the worst case scenario, a Fun Publications level of inaccessibility, seems silly to me. I'm sorry if you took offence personally, wasn't my intent, it's just how I see it.
I'd prefer to wait until this hypothetical situation takes shape in some tangible way before declaring it the second coming of FunPub's worst sins.

Has Hasbro had accessibility issues for costumers outside the US? Absolutely! And that's fair game.

But I was living in Canada during FunPub's entire tenure and even that was a headache. I can't imagine dealing with the TFCC in Europe or East Asia or anywhere else.
Likewise, whatever Hasbro's issues are with reaching international consumers, I can't see them being worse than a small third party licence holder.

I WANT to give Hasbro my money for stuff. I'm just looking for feasible ways to do so that themselves aren't dealbreakers or laden with middlemen and price hoops. And I'm hoping this turns out to be something that has room for the likes of me.

But there are so many potential pitfalls, and so much exhaustion and trauma lingering from having been in those pits before.

All valid. I get it... but again... let's see what this looks like, if it even ends up happening, before going all doom and gloom.

This isn't some last gasp life support thing for the brand, and framing it like that in response to reservations about it is a bit disingenuous.

My point was ultimately me objecting to you framing Cocks' desire for brand teams to find new streams of revenue as a bad thing.
"That teat's not being milked yet! Get on it!" being the phrase you used.

I don't think it's a bad thing. I think Hasbro's trying to navigate a world where kids are playing with toys less than they used to, where their reliable movie franchise isn't so reliable, and where their tv shows aren't making as big an impact as they used to, and they're trying to survive.

I don't think them going "hey will a MTO model work for some releases?" as some great evil of capitalism, at least not any more so than anything else every single one of us here is already complicit in.

If it does indeed help their cash flow, and it allows for more designs to see the light of day that would otherwise be stuck in an unused ideas pile for all time... I have a hard time seeing the downside.

One of the only ones I can identify is one I already touched on earlier; if Hasbro transitions MTO stuff from "niche releases that may not be sustainable at retail" to stuff that very much should be in retail then yeah. We'll have a problem.
Short of that though? The only other issue is the accessibility/availability one. And I'm willing to see what shape this takes first.

Ideally if Hasbro is going to commit a MTO outlet for certain products then they're operating a much wider direct to consumer model then a few HasLabs each year and will therefore invest in a more robust and efficient international system.

I'm fully aware they may not do that but again... let's wait and see. Even if the less than ideal status quo re: international accessibility is maintained, it's not exactly FunPub levels of inadequacy.

 

[lastmaximal]

Man, for someone who has no love for a billion dollar corporation, you sure have done a lot of unpaid work spinning the hell out of this conversation to champion their right to make money. And to someone who WANTS to give them that money, no less, but is merely hoping to do so while being over less rough a barrel.

Seriously, if a flippant observation of factually aggressive monetization packaged in a milk metaphor makes you clutch your pearls, and this is then justified by dramatic overstatement of Hasbro having to do this or their business collapses, maybe take a beat. This is hardly a survival situation. They're not under threat of bankruptcy or collapse. They're under threat of "line go up but not high enough". And this kind of surgical removal of golden eggs from the goose (but aha, without killing it yet!) can only run so long before said goose is so riddled with holes it can't continue anyway.

And hell, I'm not even getting into decrying the evils of capitalism in full here. I'm a willing participant! Again, I WANT to buy the product they churn out. I'm just painfully cognizant of the fact that this possible channel, like many times this approach has been taken before, could result in so much added middlemen and expense that it quickly becomes untenable. As expensive as things already are at regular retail, imagine if it weren't even at regular retail and there had to be a few extra steps involved to get them, with each step stacking atop the cost. And that's assuming easy availability, which as we've seen with exclusives (Runabout, Cosmos) or even in regular retail waves (Beachcomber) is not a perfectly predictable situation. Maybe if that's how you bought your stuff, you'd see the downside then.

(And no, the response there isn't as cut and dry as "don't buy it then", because if I could turn interest in this stuff off like a faucet, I wouldn't be in this deep to begin with.)

Oh, I am cynical as hell about this being an aggressive Search For More Money, because let's not kid ourselves, but I am not washing my own hands of anything. To spell it out: I am genuinely advocating for a different way than this to still give them my money, because this way will likely cause a lot more of that money to be spent without going to them anyway, and that's money they could be making instead.

I'm sorry if this is casting a pall of doom and gloom before the appropriate time to do so. These extra hoops are just what we on this side of the globe have to deal with when we're just as eager and avid collectors but happen to not be in the primary physical market venue. It's what we already have to deal with when something's exclusive to Target or Walmart, let alone Pulse or another channel. This rumor is just raising the possibility of more of that, and I'm registering my fears of how it COULD get. And, to my knowledge, that's ALL I've done. I haven't declared the second coming of a damn thing.

If that's getting in the way of your excitement for the possibilities at retail, I apologize, but do you have any idea how YOU sound in dismissing all of this as willful doomsaying like I'm some unpleasable curmudgeon rejecting poor earnest suitor Hasbro for kicks?

We know as much and as little about the positive possibilities as we do about the negative, and we have reason to believe neither eventuality can be ruled out. This is Schrodinger's MTO Offering (who knows if I'm using THAT right), and all I've said so far is I hope it doesn't suck as bad as it could (and has in varying applications in the past). If you can find it in yourself to acknowledge that such an opinion exists, thank you. If not, well, I do not think that's on me.

But I'm done explaining and reexplaining my end of this. We both want to see how this shakes out and we're hoping for the best. The end.

 

[LordGigaIce]

If that's getting in the way of your excitement for the possibilities at retail, I apologize, but do you have any idea how YOU sound in dismissing all of this as willful doomsaying like I'm some unpleasable curmudgeon rejecting poor earnest suitor Hasbro for kicks?

You're taking what I'm saying a bit too personally- more than I intended- if you think that's the intent of what I'm getting at.

All I'm saying is- and yes, I will repeat myself- wait and see before declaring this a repeat of FunPub's issues.

Now if you did misinterpret what I'm getting at as some sort of personal attack, or even just more of a personal dig then I meant, that's partially on me. And I do apologize for my role in that, it wasn't my intention for you to feel personally attacked.

Seriously, if a flippant observation of factually aggressive monetization packaged in a milk metaphor makes you clutch your pearls, and this is then justified by dramatic overstatement of Hasbro having to do this or their business collapses, maybe take a beat.

Everything I just said? I was sincere. I'm sorry if I said anything that crossed the line into a personal attack.

But you know what? If me finding your milk metaphor silly got you this defensive? It may be time for you to take a step back too.

If you can find it in yourself to acknowledge that such an opinion exists, thank you. If not, well, I do not think that's on me.

Such an opinion very much can exist, and acknowledged it multiple times.

I've apologized for letting my end of this get to a point where you felt personally attacked, but you know what? I think part of it is, indeed, on you.

And, to my knowledge, that's ALL I've done. I haven't declared the second coming of a damn thing.

Specifically what I was referring to...

Any comparison to the old club model is not one that gives me any comfort.

I'd prefer to wait until this hypothetical situation takes shape in some tangible way before declaring it the second coming of FunPub's worst sins.

Again, I played a role in this escalation and I have apologized for that (sincerely), but IMO? If THAT'S the bit of my take on this you found hit too deep? Yeah you probably need to step away from this as much as I do.

Man, for someone who has no love for a billion dollar corporation, you sure have done a lot of unpaid work spinning the hell out of this conversation to champion their right to make money.

This isn't P&R, so I'm not going to get too deep into this, but while I consider myself a fairly left wing person I'd stop short of calling myself a socialist. I believe in a strong regulating state apparatus, but not centralized public ownership and planning.

So yeah... I don't love corporations. I think someone needs to be there to make sure the consumer and worker are protected.

At the same time... um... yeah. I do believe they have the right to make money, and that them doing so is vital
There's a whole level of discussion about how, currently, we're far too close to the corporate end of things compared to the consumer/worker when it comes to finding that sweet spot, but again this ain't P&R.

To keep it on topic, I think Cocks wanting his brand teams to find additional revenue streams is something that makes sense from their perspective in the current market place.

I'm about as far from an AnCap as you get without being a socialist, but if even the faint "I think a business should try to be profitable" is enough to get you all riled up... that's one thing I won't be apologizing to you for.

But I'm done explaining and reexplaining my end of this. We both want to see how this shakes out and we're hoping for the best.

You and me both.

 

[Steevy Maximus]

TOY FAIR IS THIS WEEKEND!

Probably see the remainder of wave 2 with teases for wave 3.
I expect a reveal of the G2 Dinobot set for release this summer.

Reportedly, Walmart’s Collector Con will be around March 13, which will be when we will get to order figures from the Cybertron/Galaxy Force capsule. Still no word on who the leader offering will be, but my out of left field guesses are either Scourge (retool from Onyx Prime, maybe use the Cryo Scourge deco to differentiate from Onyx) or CDF Red Alert (retooled from Double Dealer). Slim chance for a repaint of Siege’s Galaxy Optimus Prime into his “Galaxy Force” red and grey deco

 

[lastmaximal]

I apologize for being done and then, uh, being un-done, but... I'll just leave you with this, LGI, please PM me if you want to continue this.

You're taking what I'm saying a bit too personally- more than I intended- if you think that's the intent of what I'm getting at.

All I'm saying is- and yes, I will repeat myself- wait and see before declaring this a repeat of FunPub's issues.

I'm perfectly capable of having a civil disagreement with you, and the thing is, with this, we agree on more than we disagree on. We're both open to finding out more about this, and we draw a lot of the same lines. Frankly, I can definitely admit that I've gotten too entrenched in this perspective way too soon, and I would love nothing more than to eventually get specifics that lay out how this works and what workarounds, if any, are feasible where I am. (But is that Bargaining?)

The things is, it's not a matter of personal attacks, it's a matter of my concerns -- and thus my context -- being dismissed, and words being intentionally or unintentionally put in my mouth to facilitate that.

To be clear: I haven't written this off or declared it anything. I have done a lot of moaning, I'll grant, but it's all bracing for what could be bad, not saying there's no way this could be good. And even "what could be bad" is all down to the international context, not this purported offering itself.

I've consistently said two things overall:

[1] bemoaning the probable difficulties and cost this will result in for me/us here, as anything outside regular retail already typically does.

And yeah, that includes "Any comparison to the old club model is not one that gives me any comfort.", because of the aforementioned difficulties and cost associated with that earlier experience. But let's look at that quote you specifically responded to.

For clarity, what I said was:

"Any comparison to the old club model is not one that gives me any comfort."

which is in NO way any of these three things that I was then alleged to say:

" declaring it the second coming of FunPub's terrible availability" or "declaring this a repeat of FunPub's issues" or "declaring it the second coming of FunPub's worst sins"

All it's actually saying is "this could turn out like that did, and if so, that would suuuuck for me."

None of that "hit too deep"; it's that I never said what you claim I said. The sentence doesn't even judge the MTO offering; it judges the FP model.

I've spoken before about how grateful I am to get stuff that would once upon a time be FP's purview at regular retail (for the most part). IIRC you and I have had those conversations on here before. The possibility of this bearing similarities to The Before Times worries me. That's all I'm saying. At no point have I said it's inevitable or the only possible outcome; it's the outcome I'm worried about possibly happening. Maybe there's resignation or defeatism there? That's not about this system, that's about me and the things I'll need to navigate on this end.

Honestly, FP is only even really in the conversation due to the similar-sounding model, and its baggage (the bad juju associated with scrambling to keep up with availability windows and cost) taints that association. So my guard is up, is all.

For the record: this preemptive concern can grow or shrink or be eradicated as actual details surface. But I think I'm allowed this feeling.



Second, [2] questioning this particular mode of delivery, another revenue stream on top of existing revenue streams.

To keep it on topic, I think Cocks wanting his brand teams to find additional revenue streams is something that makes sense from their perspective in the current market place.

If you'd said this and left it at this, I wouldn't have disagreed. I have no misgivings about that. It's what they do, it's a business, it exists to profit, and finding a new way to do so is no surprise: they have been aggressively mining everything they could across various brands over the last few years. Likewise, if you had said "I think a business should try to be profitable" rather than "trying to survive" and "I don't want to see Hasbro die", I wouldn't have pushed back nearly as much, if at all.

It's why, by the same token, I feel the milking metaphor is apt, in vehicle and in tone. I don't dispute that it's a reality of them being a publicly traded company in a competitive, shrinking playing field, but that reality is an inconvenient one for consumers, and talking about it can have that vibe. I don't think it's any great offense to point out that it's happening, even in cynical tones. It certainly rings more true than unnecessarily romanticizing "their perspective in the current market place" as a furtive fight for survival rather than "you know what would make MORE money?". I don't feel attacked by the former, I just disagree with it. They're not 1999/2000 WCW cooked-in-a-year-or-less. They're not the infallible toy market juggernaut they once were, but they're far from death's door because of these revenue streams they keep setting up and building on. But...

While it's no shock that they're continuing to find new approaches, to use another metaphor it's also the latest in a long line of targeted tapped veins. We're now up to x Commanders a year, we just had a new Big Four Characters Forever subline announced, and so on, and oh, here comes another one. And c'mon, you have to at least acknowledge that buyer burnout is a concern. And on this, that's where I'm coming from. I see it happening, I get why it is, I find it's getting harder to keep up with it, and I'm voicing the struggle.

[I want to say here that I honestly appreciate you not defaulting to the "just stop buying the stuff, then". You get me 100% on that. ]

I mean, again, I'm no ascetic here (I hope to someday be better at streamlining, but it's hard going). I'm not speaking on this for any altruistic reasons or under any illusions of overturning the capitalism I myself am feeding. I'm just reacting to this with a bit of worry and a bit of "well, brace the ol' wallet" (and waiting to find out more about it to see if I can feel any better about it.) And I believe there's room here for how you feel about this and how I feel about this.

 

[lastmaximal]

TOY FAIR IS THIS WEEKEND!

Probably see the remainder of wave 2 with teases for wave 3.
I expect a reveal of the G2 Dinobot set for release this summer.

Reportedly, Walmart’s Collector Con will be around March 13, which will be when we will get to order figures from the Cybertron/Galaxy Force capsule. Still no word on who the leader offering will be, but my out of left field guesses are either Scourge (retool from Onyx Prime, maybe use the Cryo Scourge deco to differentiate from Onyx) or CDF Red Alert (retooled from Double Dealer). Slim chance for a repaint of Siege’s Galaxy Optimus Prime into his “Galaxy Force” red and grey deco

February has felt so, so weird. But then that's just the latest in a long forever of weird time dilation.

My hopes are fully on Excellion (and I do hope it's a standalone rather than a multipack, the better to buy two of him), but I am curious about the rest of the Cybertron capsule. No leaker rumors on that? (Voyager Skywarp, I think? And iirc Sideways/Noisemaze was one of the pipeline reveal pics.) Would love a Dark Nitro Convoy; I think this is preferable to Override GTS, if only for the bigger color change. That's my preferred Voyager anyway; any of the Vector Primes might look okay (the gold Galaxy Force one might be snaz-zy) but I can take or leave that.

I do kind of want to find out about that G2 Dinobot set already. If it's red Slug and green Snarl, I can probably bamboozle myself into it.

 

[Undead Scottsman]

The thing that most interests me about the future of toys is 3D printing. Obviously the technology isn't anywhere near where we'd want it to be yet, but it's getting better every year.

Print on Demand has beeen a viable business for stuff like RPG books for many years now. It's MTO, but always available. You pick the title you want, choose the level of quality (b&w or color, softcover or hardcover) and they print it in the shop and mail it to you. No limited release window, no selling out of product.

Imagine if you could grab that rare figure whenever you wanted instead of having to hope you can get in a preordered, find it on shelves or for it to get reissued. No more expensive tooling needed.

We're probably at least a decade off from this, likely more, but I feel like it'll be the ultimate fate as toys become more and more targeted to collector markets vs retails sales for children.

Provided, you know, we're still concerned about toys by then and not about fighting in the water wars.

 

[LordGigaIce]

I'm perfectly capable of having a civil disagreement with you, and the thing is, with this, we agree on more than we disagree on. We're both open to finding out more about this, and we draw a lot of the same lines.

That is true, and ultimately the important part here.
I don't mean to come off as dismissive by not responding to the rest of your post. I read it, and agree it. And I don't wanna extend this in DMs because... well... looking back, we want the same things and agree with more things than not, and I think this got away from both of us. I'm sorry for my part of that. I've got not issues with you, and I don't wanna drag this out, further than I've already done.