Transformers: Age of the Primes toyline discussion || update: Wave 1 Box Art

[Sabrblade]

You know, we blame the Covenant book or Alvarez or Aligned in general for first making Optimus Prime be one of the Thirteen, but the idea seems to go back to before Aligned started up in 2010, back to 2009 with Revenge of the Fallen.

In that movie, Optimus is called "the last Prime", and Jetfire's reaction to seeing him alive ("A living Prime! Haha! Ooh! I don't believe it!") comes off as him regarding Optimus as the same kind of Prime as the Seven (rather than Thirteen) Primes who were The Fallen's brethren. However, Optimus's exact relation to the Seven Primes is never explained in the movie (tie-in material from IDW filled in those blanks, but history has shown that the movies themselves don't acknowledge those, and the widest audience of casual moviegoers didn't read them).

And when Optimus fights The Fallen at the end, they have this little exchange:

The Fallen: "Die, like your brothers!"
Optimus: "They were your brothers, too!"

Since the movie never spelled out that Optimus was supposed to be a much younger generation of Prime from that of the original Seven Primes, all this sure makes it sound like Optimus was originally one of those same Seven.

Plus, a dropped plot point from earlier script drafts of the movie was The Fallen promising to make Megatron a Prime once their goal with the Great Machine was achieved, but during the final battle, Optimus was to have revealed to Megatron that The Fallen had lied to him, stating "Primes are born, not made!" This made it into the movie's comic adaptation, but not the film itself. Nonetheless, this notion seems to have carried over into Aligned with Optimus being both a reincarnation of the Thirteenth Prime (per ROTF's implying he was somehow one of the original Seven Primes along with The Fallen) and the only true Prime among those who bore the title in the ages following that of the Thirteen (in that he was the only one who was chosen to bear the Matrix of Leadership).

 

[Exatron]

That said, does it really take away from Rodimus? Nobody Prime was just the last and least notable of Primus' first creations. The one that anyone can claim to be, to the fact we have multiple that do claim that role. Rodimus is specifically the guy he chooses. So much so that he's literally crafted in Primus' own image. That would seem to top being part of the 13. If we go by Christian Lore, the 13 are Primus' angels, considering The Fallen is supposed to be Lucifer, more or less. But Rodimus would be closer to Jesus in this context, in that he's the "common" race but is special becuase God specifically chose him. Its not 1:1

I should specify, I'm speaking from an out-of-universe perspective here. To me, "elevating" Optimus from a normal bot who becomes a great leader to being a semi-divine direct ceation of Primus feels like it's directly aimed at taking one of the core aspects tied to Rodimus (being Primus's chosen, compared to Optimus declaring himself not worthy) and giving it to Optimus, while trying to even one-up it in the process.

 

[Shadewing]

I should specify, I'm speaking from an out-of-universe perspective here. To me, "elevating" Optimus from a normal bot who becomes a great leader to being a semi-divine direct ceation of Primus feels like it's directly aimed at taking one of the core aspects tied to Rodimus (being Primus's chosen, compared to Optimus declaring himself not worthy) and giving it to Optimus, while trying to even one-up it in the process.

I get that, but doesn't stop my mind from having a sudden revealation of a way to spin it in a way that tries not to and make sense.

 

[Undead Scottsman]

I prefer Optimus to have been a shlubby little worker bot who got elevated to Prime by either happenstance or quality of his character, or both.

But, like, every continuity is different, especially the modern toyline which has no real accompanying fiction, just some ad copy and BTS stuff. Star Convoy being the 13th Prime is just a way of getting a version of that toy into the toyline and I generally wouldn't worry about it too much.

I doubt it'll come up in Earthspark and I'd be shocked if the thirteen showed up in Skybound, being post-G1 creations (I've only read up to issue #6 so far, so I could be wrong.). TF One literally had someone else at the 13th.

 

[CoffeeHorse]

One thing I like about Star Convoy as the Thirteenth is it adds another degree of separation from Orion Pax. Specifically it adds the intervention of the Zodiac, whatever that thing even is, and it's an intervention that happens in Optimus Prime's future, not Orion Pax's past.

 

[LordGigaIce]

It seems that the whole reason it was decided to declare that all of the Thirteen were Primes was solely because of Vector Prime having the word in his name, despite not being a Matrix bearer.

I remember when I first saw Cybertron.... I figured Vector Prime must be one of Optimus' distant predecessors as Prime/Matrix barer who got involved in modern day events due to time travel shenanigans. I was actually excited because back then the roster of pre-Optimus Matrix barers was slim. You had Marvel's roster of "Prima-Prime Nova-Sentinel Prime-Optimus Prime-Rodimus Prime" and DW's roster of "Alpha Prime-Guardian Prime-Sentinel Prime-Optimus Prime" and that was it.
"Nova Prime, "Nominus Prime," and "Zeta Prime" as we know them now weren't things yet and Sentinel had scant characterization, if any at all. So having some old Matrix barer from the past be introduced as a main character was appealing to the nerd in me that loved backstory and lore. They never called him a Matrix barer mind you, but he was a Prime! He had to be, right?

Then they did the "he's a member of the Thirteen and they're all Primes even if they didn't all have the Matrix" thing and it just seemed... dumb? Like an unnecessary change to the lore and internal rules of the franchise that didn't make things better, only worse. IMO.

A narrative tweak might be that they WERE all Primes

If Hasbro ever said "LGI we're gonna let you write the next Transformers franchise and you can do whatever you want with the lore" I'd be half tempted to toss out the idea of the Thirteen entirely.
Just make it so that Prima was the first Matrix barer and then every member of "the Thirteen" became one of his successors until "the Fallen" got stricken from records for doing a bad (probably involving Unicron) and Nova becoming the first Prime after an interim, before the Matrix went to Nominus, Zeta, Sentinel, and then Optimus.
Just establish this long line of Matrix barers and use the Thirteen as name drops to fill it out and ignore the "original Thirteen" idea.

The alternative I like is to embrace the idea of "Thirteen Primes" who laid the foundations for Cybertronian society and whose legacy was carried by subsequent Matrix barers, with Alpha Prime hiding his identity under the name "Alpha Trion" and Maximo Prime heading off to assume the mantel of "Liege Maximo" to ruminate on his own plans. The last two remaining members of the original Thirteen, that most Cybertronians don't even know are still alive.

But even then, with the "embrace the Thirteen" idea, I don't think there's any way to make "Optimus is the God Emperor" work in a good way so #13 would have to be someone else.

 

[Sabrblade]

whatever that thing even is

In JG1, it's the power that created the universe dating back to the Big Bang. The particular piece that featured in both Zone and The Battlestars was the piece that belonged to (and likely created) the Earth itself, with Dai Atlas calling it "the Soul of the Earth".

 

[LordGigaIce]

In that movie, Optimus is called "the last Prime", and Jetfire's reaction to seeing him alive ("A living Prime! Haha! Ooh! I don't believe it!") comes off as him regarding Optimus as the same kind of Prime as the Seven (rather than Thirteen) Primes who were The Fallen's brethren.

DotM prequel comics establish that the "Seven" members of the Dynasty of Primes that the Fallen was a part of were all (thought) to be dead. Sentinel was "the last descendent" of the Primes but he suspected there was one other and found a young Optimus and recognized he was likewise a Prime.
Then Optimus and Megatron became his students and Megs started feeling insecure because he wasn't a Prime like Sentinel or Optimus, and once Sentinel and his gang had succeeded in finding Cybertron a sun that resentment grew in Megs until The Fallen was able to manipulate him.

Sentinel was presumed lost when the Ark vanished into a time hole and so Optimus very much was the last of the Dynasty of Primes.

But notably he wasn't one of the original members. He was specifically "the last" in so much as the last member of the most recent generation.

 

[Sabrblade]

However, Optimus's exact relation to the Seven Primes is never explained in the movie (tie-in material from IDW filled in those blanks, but history has shown that the movies themselves don't acknowledge those, and the widest audience of casual moviegoers didn't read them).

 

[CoffeeHorse]

In JG1, it's the power that created the universe dating back to the Big Bang. The particular piece that featured in both Zone and The Battlestars was the piece that belonged to (and likely created) the Earth itself, with Dai Atlas calling it "the Soul of the Earth".

Cool, but I'll be surprised if Hasbro acknowledges any of that.

 

[Undead Scottsman]

Where would they even acknowledge that if they wanted to? There's no more toy fiction tie-in and we don't even get two line character blurbs on the website anymore.

 

[LordGigaIce]

Where would they even acknowledge that if they wanted to? There's no more toy fiction tie-in and we don't even get two line character blurbs on the website anymore.

Mark's IG lore dumps?

Mark Maher on Instagram: "He has been awakened… welcome the first matrix bearer, Prima Prime. This voyager class highly articulated figure is ready to form his warriors of light and vanquish the darkness within any bot, creature, demon, and even appa

361 likes, 14 comments - markclonus on December 9, 2024: "He has been awakened… welcome the first matrix bearer, Prima Prime. This voyager class highly articulated figure is ready to form his warriors of light and vanquish the darkness within any bot, creature, demon, and even apparition. . The...

www.instagram.com

Armada Red Alert being descended from Prima is new but fitting I think.

 

[LordGigaIce]

never explained in the movie (tie-in material from IDW filled in those blanks, but history has shown that the movies themselves don't acknowledge those, and the widest audience of casual moviegoers didn't read them).

Regardless, I don't think RotF had any real barring on Optimus being made the Thirteenth. We know from the Binder of Revelations that this wasn't the original plan, with Optimus specifically said to count both Prima and Alpha Trion as ancestors, which doesn't work if he's their brother. Clearly no one was thinking "Optimus is the Thirteenth" when the project began.

My guess is that given how many OCs Hasbro had to make to fill out the Thirteen's ranks, the idea well ran dry and for whatever reason characters like Logos Prime were deemed not viable. So needing to finish the Covenant, someone pitched Optimus and the reincarnation angle and they just ran with it because it made the franchise centrepiece that much more "special."

 

[Sabrblade]

and for whatever reason characters like Logos Prime were deemed not viable

They simply didn't know about Logos Prime.

 

[LordGigaIce]

They simply didn't know about Logos Prime.

Hasbro didn't?

 

[Sabrblade]

Hasbro didn't?

Yes.

 

[LordGigaIce]

Odd.

 

[ZacWilliam1]

Mark's IG lore dumps?

Mark Maher on Instagram: "He has been awakened… welcome the first matrix bearer, Prima Prime. This voyager class highly articulated figure is ready to form his warriors of light and vanquish the darkness within any bot, creature, demon, and even appa

361 likes, 14 comments - markclonus on December 9, 2024: "He has been awakened… welcome the first matrix bearer, Prima Prime. This voyager class highly articulated figure is ready to form his warriors of light and vanquish the darkness within any bot, creature, demon, and even apparition. . The...

www.instagram.com

Armada Red Alert being descended from Prima is new but fitting I think.

I really like the hover mode for the alt mode here. Both with the fin and bayonet use of the sword.

-ZacWilliam, I think he's the toy I'm looking forward to the most of AoPs first wave.

 

[CoffeeHorse]

I kinda like it better in orange.

 

[Sabrblade]

Odd.

It's because Beast Wars Reborn is an uber-obscure prose story that has only ever really been heard of by us diehards who are deep in the sauce and/or have kept up with Andrew Hall's translation work. And at the time of 2010, only two of its four chapters had been fan-translated into English, with the two remaining untranslated chapters having been the ones that explained his whole deal as an Ancient (not a Thirteen Prime). Heck, most people in this fandom have never even heard of Beast Wars Reborn or Logos Prime.

The same people at Hasbro who put together the Binder had never even heard of Angolmois Energy either (which was way more well known in the fandom than Beast Wars Reborn), hence all the comparisons fans made between it and Dark Energon at the time (only because the western fandom knew more of Angolmois Energy's retconned connection to Unicron more than its original connection to Earth).