Transformers: Age of the Primes toyline discussion || update: Wave 1 Box Art

Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
Citizen
See, I always believed that Vector Prime and the Last Autobot were always meant to be separate individuals from the get-go, based on the bottom-right panel of this page from "Vector Prime: In the Beginning" (one of the first appearances of Vector Prime in any media, even preceding the premiere of the Cybertron cartoon's English dub):

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In that bottom-right panel, we see Vector Prime flying off from Cybertron accompanied by several other vessels. One of these is the Ark as it was depicted in the Marvel comics, and another one seen directly below and far away from Vector's ship mode is a similarly shaped blue ship that I always thought was meant to be the Last Autobot in his own ship mode.


Yeah him calling Star Optimus "the God Prime" in the newest Pulse video kinda irked me, mainly cause I thought that was Prima's whole thing, being the first holder of the matrix and wielder of the Star Saber, he's the greatest.
Mark calling him that didn't bother me quite as much since Star Convoy is Optimus's most powerful form in JG1 in which he wields the ancient power that literally created the universe, which one could consider to be a very godly power.

But yeah, Prima's supposed to be the leader who bears the Matrix containing Primus's own essence and the super special Star Saber sword.

...Unless we go back to the enigma that was Primon, who somehow preceded Prima as the actual first Matrix-bearer in one version of the legend (and, hey, now that I think about it, Prima inheriting the Matrix from another after the first was killed could have explained why Prima had two special relics instead of one, before later authors decided to give the other Thirteen their own multiple relics).
 
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Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
Citizen
It would definitely contradict some previous material in other continuities,
In what ways? From the time of the Last Autobot's debut in 1991 to the introduction of Vector Prime in 2005, the Last Autobot hadn't been used in any TF fiction.
 

Donocropolis

Olde-Timey Member
Staff member
Council of Elders
Citizen
In what ways? From the time of the Last Autobot's debut in 1991 to the introduction of Vector Prime in 2005, the Last Autobot hadn't been used in any TF fiction.

Browsing his wiki profile, I guess the only direct contradition (other than the possible "both in the same room" comic panel that you showed earlier) is with Fun Publications, which isn't super canon anyway? So I guess there really isn't any reason they can't be the same guy.

Even the comic panel you showed could be explained as a Two Doctors situation, where they are the same guy at different points in their personal timeline.
 

Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
Citizen
Browsing his wiki profile, I guess the only direct contradition (other than the possible "both in the same room" comic panel that you showed earlier) is with Fun Publications, which isn't super canon anyway? So I guess there really isn't any reason they can't be the same guy.

Even the comic panel you showed could be explained as a Two Doctors situation, where they are the same guy at different points in their personal timeline.
Frankly, what evidence was there that they were the same guy? No fiction has ever suggested that they were, and the only fiction that ever would have explored such an idea would more likely than not have come from Fun Pub, but they (or more precisely Jim Sorenson) leaned into the opposite direction by even giving the Last Autobot the true name of "Autonomous Maximus".
 

Donocropolis

Olde-Timey Member
Staff member
Council of Elders
Citizen
Frankly, what evidence was there that they were the same guy? No fiction has ever suggested that they were, and the only fiction that ever would have explored such an idea would more likely than not have come from Fun Pub, but they (or more precisely Jim Sorenson) leaned into the opposite direction by even giving the Last Autobot the true name of "Autonomous Maximus".

Oh, I'm not saying that they've ever been presented as being the same guy before. I just said that I'd be open to the idea to help consolidate some of the various groupings of "big special important creations of Primus." Vector Prime definitely seems to have been inspired by the Last Autobot (at least visually), so combining them didn't seem a terrible idea.
 

Shadewing

Well-known member
Citizen
Frankly, what evidence was there that they were the same guy? No fiction has ever suggested that they were, and the only fiction that ever would have explored such an idea would more likely than not have come from Fun Pub, but they (or more precisely Jim Sorenson) leaned into the opposite direction by even giving the Last Autobot the true name of "Autonomous Maximus".

Yes, and its not like the Doctor hasn't used Aliases previously when he's trying to be incogneto and "Autonomous Maximus" sounds very much like a name made up on the spot.
 

Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
Citizen
The more I think about this mysterious "Primon" that Furman retroactively added to the original Marvel list of Matrix bearers, the more I begin to realize that there may have been a way to fit him back into the Marvel G1 lore using what was already there, and what a missed opportunity that has since become.

Looking back over the history of Optimus Prime's predecessors in the Marvel comics, what we know now had to be pieced together mostly by process of elimination.

The first time we saw a Matrix bearer before Optimus was in the very first Marvel origin story for the Transformers, in issue #150 of the Marvel UK comics, "The Legacy of Unicron!"

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We see this unnamed Matrix bearer personally handing the Matrix to Optimus, more than likely making him Optimus's immediate predecessor. He seems to bear a more than passing similarity to Rodimus Prime.

When this origin story was later carried over into the US comics, it was depicted in US issue #61 (UK issues #259-261), "The Primal Scream", along with yet another Matrix bearer.

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This time, we are shown a blue and gold Matrix bearer, who appears to be literally created out of the surface material of Cybertron itself. The imagery and narration text seems to be implying that this guy is one of the earliest Transformers created by Primus, if not the very first one ever (which is, admittedly, a very safe assumption since it would make a lot of sense for Primus to give the Matrix to the very first of his creations), and thus is likely the very first Matrix bearer of them all.

In US issue #65 (UK issues #290-293), we were given a full list of names belonging to those who had been chosen to carry the Creation Matrix, starting from Primus and ending with Optimus.

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With this information, readers could then backtrack and fill in the blanks on the two previously-seen unnamed Matrix bearers. The Rodimus-looking one who was shown passing the Matrix to Optimus in "The Legacy of Unicron!" was determined to be Sentinel Prime.

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While Mr. Blue-and-Gold from "The Primal Scream" could have either been Prima or Prime Nova, but was determined to be Prima due to his appearing to be one of the earliest Transformers first created by Primus from out of Cybertron's surface, as it made more sense for Prima Nova to have come later than that original generation of first Transformers.

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Later on, the Transformers origin story was told a third time in US issue #74 (UK issues #317-318), "The Void!", in which yet another Matrix bearer was seen.

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This vague, non-descript blob of a bearer was determined to be Prime Nova simply because there was no other option left (at the time, that is).

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For a time, all this seemed to make sense. There was the one list of names, and each name seemed to have a face to go with it.

But then, the Marvel Generations 2 comics rolled around and introduced this other Rodimus-looking purple and yellow dude in G2 issue #5 (Fleetway G2 issue #4-5), "The Power and the Glory", as the undisputed very first Transformer every created by Primus.

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Of particular note is that this guy had no signs or indications of being a Matrix bearer, so it was entirely possible at the time that this guy wasn't necessarily the same individual as Mr. Blue-and-Gold from "The Primal Scream" (whom the fans had already determined to be Prima).

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For all anyone knew, these two could have been brethren from the same generation, at the very least.

Then, for BotCon 1999, Simon Furman (the man responsible for all of the stories mentioned above) was brought back to Transformers to write a multi-part cosmic epic called "Reaching the Omega Point", in which he both revisited the past lore of the Marvel G1/G2 comics and added new elements to it.

The first big addition was the Covenant, a group of 12 primordial Transformers that had been the very first creations of Primus ever, created by him as a test run to see if he could truly create the Transformer race as a whole, and created back during Primus's epic battle with Unicron on a moon called Protos, long before Primus had even created Cybertron itself.

Primus intended to lure Unicron to a reality that existed as an extension of the mind, beyond the physical form. There, Unicron would all but triumph, and scenting final victory would blindly pursue the retreating Primus. Unicron would not, until far too late, realize that, instead of returning to their energy forms, their psychic essences had materialized inside dead metal asteroids, where they would both be trapped for all eternity.

But like all good plans, a dry run was needed. Especially as all this was simply the precursor to a much grander and far reaching scheme. And that was where the Covenant came in.

Leonicus paused the partially fused quasi-reality template, aware that he was subliminally infusing it with an air of triteness, shallowness even. The origin of his entire race was reading like a fable, and an uninspired one at that. Focus was needed, more so now than ever. They had arrived at what could be described as the second "beginning"...

Selecting a suitably barren and unpopulated moon, Primus transferred part of his life force deep into its core. There he focused all his vast psionic abilities, restructuring a portion of its mass from the inside out. For three hundred thousand years he worked his way to the surface, creating an incredibly complex hive-like colony, completely self-sufficient and equipped with technology and equipment of unparalleled sophistication and range. And then, in a supreme act of focused will, Primus created life.

The experiment was an unqualified success. Formed from the very metal of the moon, fueled by tiny sparks of Primus' own life force, the Transformers were born. Twelve in total. The Covenant.


Prepared with the knowledge that once caged in his metal prison he could re-shape it, create a race that could carry on and see through his Plan, Primus departed, leaving the Twelve with the means to both stay hidden and monitor the course of events, all the while readying themselves for the call to arms.

The other addition was to the list of Matrix bearers, to which two more names were added: After Optimus Prime came the obvious expectation that was Rodimus Prime, but added to the beginning of the list was a not-so-expected predecessor to Prima named Primon, who had lost the Matrix when he was seemingly murdered by the Liege Maximo.

He was there, at the beginning, as Unicron roared his fury at the encroachment of new life into the barren nothingness that was his kingdom. He stood on the front line at Jan-Ja, as the warrior who would be Optimus Prime took up his fallen Monark's banner and cried "never surrender" in the face of an advancing Decepticon phalanx. He watched spellbound as Autobot City rose gleaming from the ashes of the battlefields on Earth. Saw the Liege Maximo tear the Matrix of Leadership from the shattered remains of Primon.
They waited and watched. Saw Primus' prison become Cybertron, saw him populate it with beings like themselves, saw the great Civil War begin and spread across the galaxy - most tellingly, to Earth - saw the return of Unicron, who had also shaped his prison, saw the Matrix of Leadership pass from Primon to Prima to Prime Nova to Sentinel Prime to Optimus Prime, and ultimately to Rodimus Prime, saw the destruction of Unicron, saw the end of the Civil War, saw the restructuring of Cybertronian society into Maximal and Predacon castes. Billions of years, and an intricate weave of events that formed the tapestry of the Grand Plan.

When asked directly about this in an interview, how Primon fits into the previous Marvel list of Matrix bearers, Furman only gave the nonanswer of "Umm... pass. The Matrix forgot?"

But let's step back for a second. Recall that Mr. Blue-and-Gold from "The Primal Scream" was originally determined to be Prima simply because that made the most sense at the time. And that the purple-and-yellow dude from "The Power and the Glory" was said to be the very first Transformer (specifically the first one born on Cybertron) of them all. Well, with this new info added to the mix, was it ever supposed that maybe, just maybe, either Mr. Blue-and-Gold or Mr. Purple-and-Yellow could have been Primon?

Mr. Purple-and-Yellow being the first Transformer ever would mean he preceded Mr. Blue-and-Gold's birth, but Mr. Blue-and-Gold was the only one between the two to have been explicitly shown to be a Matrix bearer, and was seemingly given it by Primus directly upon his creation.

It should also be pointed out that none of the above origin stories thus far have even said anything about the first Matrix bearer being the first Cybertronian creation of Primus.

It wouldn't be until 2004 when Transformers: The Ultimate Guide came along and first introduced the concept of the Thirteen Original Transformers, that it would be stated that Mr. Purple-and-Yellow from Marvel G2, the first Transformer of them all, was actually Prima.

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Zero in on the text beneath that bottom-left pic recycled from Marvel G2 that says "Molded from the living skin of the planet and imbued with a fragment of Primus' own Spark, the first TRANSFORMER—named Prima—answers his creator's urgent call to arms!"

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So, okay then. We have full confirmation that Mr. Purple-and-Yellow, the first ever Cybertronian Transformer of them all, is Prima. But then, what about Mr. Blue-and-Gold, who was previously determined to be Prima. Well, currently, the logic is that Mr. Blue-and-Gold and Mr. Purple-and-Yellow are simply different artist interpretations of the same guy. But, that clearly wasn't always the case, as I sincerely doubt the artists of the respective issues (Geoff Senior and Manny Galan) had really intended for these two to be the same character. After all, both were originally unnamed in their respective appearances, and the Purple one was never indicated to have ever even been a Matrix-bearer. We know now that he is but only in retrospect from a 2004 retcon.

So here's my theory. If we were to take the blue guy and the purple guy (who already have very different designs from each other) as separate individuals, the Purple guy could still be Prima, the first Transformer, while the blue guy could have been Primon, the first Matrix bearer. Why someone else younger than the first Transformer would be given the Matrix instead of him, who knows? Maybe there was a reason for it. All I see is potential for a new story just waiting to be told and explore that very question.

But alas, it doesn't look like that'll ever happen as long as we fans continue to see Mr. Blue-and-Gold as being the same person as Prima/Mr. Purple-and-Yellow.
 
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LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
I have my own theories about Primon, namely that he was somehow involved in the very act of creating Cybertronian society. Be he Primus' first creation and the first holder of the Matrix to help guide the young Cybertronians who would become the Thirteen (Primus origin) or as perhaps the earliest self-aware robot who the entity known as It placed the Matrix with early in the days of Quintesson production on Cybertron (Quintesson creation).

Another possibility is that Primon is Prima. I look at world history and mythology. Lots of the very earliest patriarchs in the Bible have multiple names, either by earning new names through pious or heroic deeds or simply by different parts of the text being written by a different author who knew the character/myth by another name.

If you look at the very earliest bits we know of ancient Egyptian history we have multiple names archeologists now believe belonged to the same individual.

And the earliest Greek myths mention gods whose names never come up again but they sure seem similar to more familiar gods who show up later.

Mythology isn't static, it's an ever-changing system of beliefs and stories and it's entirely possible that Prima, one of the earliest figures in all of Cybertronian history and mythology, might have a few different names over the eons.
 

Steevy Maximus

Well known pompous pontificator
Citizen
I have my own theories about Primon, namely that he was somehow involved in the very act of creating Cybertronian society. Be he Primus' first creation and the first holder of the Matrix to help guide the young Cybertronians who would become the Thirteen (Primus origin) or as perhaps the earliest self-aware robot who the entity known as It placed the Matrix with early in the days of Quintesson production on Cybertron (Quintesson creation).

Another possibility is that Primon is Prima. I look at world history and mythology. Lots of the very earliest patriarchs in the Bible have multiple names, either by earning new names through pious or heroic deeds or simply by different parts of the text being written by a different author who knew the character/myth by another name.

If you look at the very earliest bits we know of ancient Egyptian history we have multiple names archeologists now believe belonged to the same individual.

And the earliest Greek myths mention gods whose names never come up again but they sure seem similar to more familiar gods who show up later.

Mythology isn't static, it's an ever-changing system of beliefs and stories and it's entirely possible that Prima, one of the earliest figures in all of Cybertronian history and mythology, might have a few different names over the eons.
That’s about my biggest “hang up” on the 13, as a modern concept. Hasbro and fans are so set on “defining” everything to a concrete thing, some of that fun we get from building our own interpretations seem lost. Just consider how different fans probably perceived The Jedi Order and The Clone Wars prior to the prequels creating a set definition to them.

That’s also part of the reason I’m not too hung up on the “mural of the Primes”, to me, they are different interpretations of the characters done after the fact. Like how many historical paintings often “glamorized” or “homogenized” historic figures into what society preferred at the time (Neither Jesus or Pocahontas were white, for example, despite historical art depicting them as such).


ON to the toys, I used a coupon I had for Best Buy and got Prima preordered for $11. I’m going to roll the dice on finding Star Convoy on a better deal next fall. Sadly, Best Buy only seemed to be offering preorders for the Superion components and the Primes. But not the leader class figures, oddly.
 


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