Star Trek General Discussion

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
Anyhow, science wise, it was probably explained at the start but that tiny Rubicon ship was made to fly in outer space , right? But it was just floating inside the Defiant, which has artificial gravity. How could the ship operate then? Unless it was built to expose actual planets with atmosphere or whatever, then it would just be grounded with no flight thrust or whatever.
Runabouts are just big shuttles, and they land them on planets all the time. Sometimes without even crashing or being stranded! One G and one atmosphere is entirely normal operating conditions for them. (Obviously they can't go to warp while in atmospheric flight but nothing can. 😁)

No, the science hole you don't want to fall down is questioning whether materials compressed by the anomaly have any properties changed other than their size. The ship is luckily a sealed environment, so you don't have to worry about whether the Szalinski kids can breathe normal oxygen molecules with their spatially compressed hemoglobin. But light is light and nanometers are nanometers, so they should be seeing in ultraviolet when they look out the windows. And if the Rubicon retains its full mass, then whatever thrust or repulsion is allowing it to fly should be doing a number on the Defiant's deck plating. I expect the mass to be the same because the compressed matter has to more or less retain the properties of its full size self, and shouldn't actually behave like a scale model of itself made with a tiny fraction of the material. For one, you couldn't make normal functioning cells and computers and things at that size out of normal atoms, and anyway the Scalinskis would be transparent, and also dead of radiation poisoning from the warp core since its shielding would be too thin to stop anything.

If you're wondering how he eats and breathes, and other science facts....
 

wonko the sane?

You may test that assumption at your convinience.
Citizen
Runabouts are also capable of flying (yes, and hovering.) in gravity and atmosphere. So it didn't do anything on the defiant it wasn't already capable of.
 

Fero McPigletron

Feel the fear!
Citizen
I haven't seen it for 20 years, but wasn't Nog a newsy?
?!?

I had to recheck the ep. OMQ! THAT guy at the start was NOG?!?! That's amazing! Haha!!!

On the Rubicon, whoops. I didn't realize it was a runabout, haha. For some reason, thought it my head that it was some sort of new shrink ship or something, haha. The runabouts I always hear named were the Rio Grande and the Yukon. I thought the Rubicon was something new.

What's a szalinski?
 

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Ungnome

Grand Empress of the Empire of One Square Foot.
Citizen
Can you replicate a live animal for a pet?
It's been established that you can't replicate living tissue. Not sure if it's a limit of the technology or ethics regulations forbid it.
 

wonko the sane?

You may test that assumption at your convinience.
Citizen
Even if it wasn't a technological limitation (cause, let's be real here: the transporter replicates living material all the ******* time.) then it's certainly an ethical one. Why would you even need to replicate a pet anyway? Plenty of living animals out there: and the pain of loss is an integral part of living and maturing.
 

Dekafox

Fabulously Foxy Dragon
Citizen
The replicator and transporter probably use similar tech, but the replicator likely isn't as precise since it doesn't have the same size buffers and whatnot, so you could try but you'd probably get something that "thankfully didn't live long"
 

Stepwise

Not Crew.
Citizen

Axaday

Well-known member
Citizen
?!?

I had to recheck the ep. OMQ! THAT guy at the start was NOG?!?! That's amazing! Haha!!!

On the Rubicon, whoops. I didn't realize it was a runabout, haha. For some reason, thought it my head that it was some sort of new shrink ship or something, haha. The runabouts I always hear named were the Rio Grande and the Yukon. I thought the Rubicon was something new.

What's a szalinski?
If you are going to read Bezel (and I do recommend it) you are going to need a deep, pop culture knowledge base. The Szalinskis are the family from "Honey I Shrunk the Kids". Rick Moranis had agreed to come back for a Legacy sequel pre-Covid, but I saw the other day that the project has been cancelled.

Runabout protip: The Danube class are all (or maybe just almost all, for all I know for sure) named after rivers.

Edit - Bezel once referenced the Busy World of Richard Scarry on this forum.
 

Axaday

Well-known member
Citizen
Even if it wasn't a technological limitation (cause, let's be real here: the transporter replicates living material all the ******* time.) then it's certainly an ethical one. Why would you even need to replicate a pet anyway? Plenty of living animals out there: and the pain of loss is an integral part of living and maturing.
They aren't plentiful on starships. You don't have to feed them if you just replicate them when you go off shift and then put them wherever you put your tea cups when it is time for bed.
 

wonko the sane?

You may test that assumption at your convinience.
Citizen
They aren't plentiful on starships. You don't have to feed them if you just replicate them when you go off shift and then put them wherever you put your tea cups when it is time for bed.
Please, please, PLEASE... never have a pet.
 

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
I honestly love hate the idea. Why not just store your pet in the computer when it's not in use? But Spot and Grudge cause minimal problems just hanging out, so that doesn't really seem to be a *large* problem. Maybe it's worse if you don't have your own personal quarters. I actually wouldn't have thought that storing a pet inside the transporter buffer like Mbenga's kid would be inherently cruel or disturbing but you've somehow made it terrible and I love it.

Even if it wasn't a technological limitation (cause, let's be real here: the transporter replicates living material all the ******* time.) then it's certainly an ethical one. Why would you even need to replicate a pet anyway? Plenty of living animals out there: and the pain of loss is an integral part of living and maturing.
I actually don't agree? Pets that human people have in the present all derive from the pet trade. Shelter animals are the descendants of animals that were pets, the results of abandonment, failure to sterilize, or excesses in the pet trade itself. I don't think in the Federation's utopia that exists on Earth and within starships and stations there are any feral animals. There would only be pets already being bred to be used as pets. (Sterilized at the nursery and fully GMO-certified.) So at that point, it's an ethical wash whether you bred them or replicated them. Animals taken from the wild, on the other hand, are undomesticated and do not thrive in captivity, and they're pilfered from an existing ecosystem, which feels out of line with Starfleet nonintervention and ideals of self-determination among other things.

Technically though you should already be able to have the next best thing in Picard era, because ubiquitous holography and AI pets have both been established as things. "Computer, activate Emergency Cuddle Hologram." To me this seems the simplest solution to the problem. Even if you don't have holo-emitters in walls in a particular ship or home, they seem to have been miniaturized over the years to make that integration possible, and the power use is not extreme. I imagine you could at the very least have a standard Starfleet briefcase worth of kit that produces a fully thinking and feeling pet on command.

It was definitely established in TNG that living tissue couldn't be replicated and I always *thought* that was a technical limitation. It seemed consistent with the fact that people routinely refer to "programming" replicator patterns and this seems to be an involved process. You can't put a bowl of dad's gumbo on a transporter pad and replicate it whenever you want. I've always kind of assumed as I've said before that the meat was already Implausible Targ and quite distant from functioning living flesh.

In Deep Space Nine though, something different happens in "Our Man Bashir": when Sisko et al. suddenly have to be stored in a computer somewhere as transporter patterns, the station sends their bodies to the holosuite computer, but has to overwrite everything else on the station to store the explicitly quantum information of their brain patterns. So is it living things or just brains that can't be stored as data and replicated? (Worth saying that you can handwave information that can't be copied, only transferred, by throwing "quantum" at it, because there is such a state in a quantum computer that can't be read without being destroyed in one place and recreated in just one other. But if human bodies aren't quantum patterns, they shouldn't have this limitation, and neither should any living tissue inside them.)

Single-episode miracles probably don't establish real facts about the Trek universe that can be depended upon elsewhere. But even if living bodies can be easily produced from information that fits on a holosuite computer, the brain information of a dog would be a significant fraction of that of a human, which would be a large amount of data that might be inconvenient to store, much more than a hologram AI.

So I'd go with the holo suitcase myself. It's less speculative and has all the convenience of a replicated pet you store in the computer, though without the hilarious squick.

Thanks for the assist on my reply to Fero, Axaday. 😁
 

wonko the sane?

You may test that assumption at your convinience.
Citizen
We know that there are still pet breeders in the federation, on earth even, thanks to janeway. I never mentioned just snatching up ferals, but just about every species has some kind of domesticated companion animal, even the klingons. Don't need to raid the wilds for a pet.

Also: storing them in the pattern buffer? You just turned spot into a pokemon.
 

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
We know that there are still pet breeders in the federation, on earth even, thanks to janeway. I never mentioned just snatching up ferals, but just about every species has some kind of domesticated companion animal, even the klingons. Don't need to raid the wilds for a pet.
I want to be clear that I don't doubt there are pet breeders or mean to imply that you were picturing wild caught cats, I was just trying to account for all the possible sources of these animals. "Plenty of animals out there" is a good ethical argument for adopting shelter animals instead of buying from a breeder, because you're taking on the care of an animal that needs it rather than contributing demand to the pet industry while an abundance of uncared for animals exists. But I don't see an ethical difference between breeding animals and replicating them. You are taking on an identical degree of responsibility in either case, and as far as I can see, these two options are the only potential sources of live pets.

Also: storing them in the pattern buffer? You just turned spot into a pokemon.
Inconvenient pokémon, because the storage media wouldn't fit into a marble and you'd need a pet-sized replicator to put them in or take them out. I also don't know if Axaday was picturing this as updating the pet on file after playing with it or not, which would raise a different set of concerns. The way I was picturing it, the pet would have its memories of its keeper playing with it and the like, and simply exist only for a few hours at a time when convenient. It would presumably be a mostly happy existence with the exception of all those times it's being crammed into the microwave. Unlike a pokémon, it wouldn't be consciously passing time while in storage, and it wouldn't be being taken out to fight gladiatorial battles at its master's behest. So from its own perspective, its life would be much like that of any pet today, except that it would always have access to human attention, it would always feel fed after those times it was stuffed in the microwave, and while it wouldn't be aware of its noncontinuous existence, it would see its keeper age over time more than if it did exist continuously. Presumably it would itself also age normally during the times it was active. I just question whether the storage and energy requirements would be any less than that of just keeping a pet in the normal way.

If Axaday is picturing a library of generically friendly pet programs with brains written like an AI and that could be accessed by anyone and are simply dematerialized at the end of a play session without changing the version of the pet on file, it's slightly more ethically dubious, but I do have difficulty insisting that you're "killing" something if its brief existence is the manifestation of a program that still exists and it experiences no suffering. I mean that's literally just the transporter problem again with the addition of some short period of independent activity. But at that point, the distinction from and advantages over my holopet suggestion seem trivial and not at all worth the disadvantages. A holopet could be drawn from a similar library and yet still have continuous memories of its keeper, and it just generally avoids any of the problems replicators bring into the mix. (It also doesn't raise any ethical issues at all, so it's a fun idea IMO but also not very interesting.)
 

Axaday

Well-known member
Citizen
If Axaday is picturing a library of generically friendly pet programs with brains written like an AI and that could be accessed by anyone and are simply dematerialized at the end of a play session without changing the version of the pet on file, it's slightly more ethically dubious, but I do have difficulty insisting that you're "killing" something if its brief existence is the manifestation of a program that still exists and it experiences no suffering. I mean that's literally just the transporter problem again with the addition of some short period of independent activity. But at that point, the distinction from and advantages over my holopet suggestion seem trivial and not at all worth the disadvantages. A holopet could be drawn from a similar library and yet still have continuous memories of its keeper, and it just generally avoids any of the problems replicators bring into the mix. (It also doesn't raise any ethical issues at all, so it's a fun idea IMO but also not very interesting.)

Riker only wants real eggs and dogs. The replicator is not quite right. Might be good enough for his brain. But for his breakfast?
 

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
Well, I guess I just accept the premise that I think a lot of Trek seems to indicate, that you can transport real eggs and they'll still taste just as good, you just can't replicate them, because the difference isn't in the reconstitution, it's in the pattern, because a pattern taken from a real object would be a big messy thing you couldn't easily store.

I guess it's not a point that I really feel the need to drill too hard into. We all know that the real reason for transporters is because they're convenient for the writers and effects people and have become synonymous with Star Trek. Meanwhile replicators have to be much more limited in what they can do or they can solve every problem. I honestly think it's not a bad feature of Trek tech that the same technology that can assemble a human body on a planet from orbit can also assemble a ham sandwich - that seems reasonable to me, and it would be weirder if it had never come up. And I honestly think that as handwaves go, saying that transporter patterns are a huge amount of volatile quantum information that requires a massive amount of storage, and also maybe can't even be duplicated intentionally, is not a bad one.

That all taken together means that a replicator can only produce things it's been programmed to produce, and can't simply beam up and store an object and create an unlimited number of copies. It's strung to hold together just enough for me to accept as a premise of the tech, and also explain why super advanced aliens always have the ability to do exactly what normal species' technology can't (timely example in SNW Thursday.)
 

wonko the sane?

You may test that assumption at your convinience.
Citizen
Ultimately the pattern used on eggs is THE pattern. There's no variation: replicate a million eggs and each time it will taste exactly the same. The eggs from a living source are affected by the thousands of little things that affect all life; the food source, age, general health, stress, ect. Real eggs are probably better (in their minds.) because each experience is unique. And the same goes for all the food from the replicator.

Apparently it's not hard to create a replicator pattern: but you need to have the thing in the first place. So your egg, your recent model plasma conduit, your very latest medication in standard issue hypospray. There is still all the standard industries, just in smaller scale because the goal is just to get the "thing" to the point where they scan it for upload to the federations network.
 


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