The 2024 Us Presidential Election Thread

Axaday

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I bet those exact same people mock Republicans for "voting against their own economic interests because of culture war issues." Leftists For Trump Because Palestine is the clearest example of a gamified online social contagion we've ever seen, beyond QAnon.

And directly related to this - Shapiro would have carried Pennsylvania and almost certainly would be VP-Elect right now. But the fangtoothed antisemitism of that same part of the base ruled him out despite his stances being exactly the same as all the other prospects and the same as Harris herself, so instead we got the Undersecretary of Dad Jokes Tim Walz, who you will never hear of again.
It is just where things get complicated. There is always a temptation toward thinking we can look at who someone votes for and tell who they are, but it just isn't the truth. It is much more reliable to look who they are (lots more than 2 kinds of people) and figure out who they would vote for. I work in a unionized refinery in Oklahoma. Oklahoma has been a right to work state for over 20 years and our union is still pretty solid. But the members are overwhelmingly Republican and Trump supporters. I know one of them who is a woman who definitely voted for Trump. Being a woman wasn't what was most important. Being a union member wasn't what was most important. It's the family values* issues that are pretty hardwired into the party platforms, not at stake in any recent election. Most people have an issue or two that is way more important to them than anything else and they'll vote against their seeming interests over and over again to vote for that issue.

In this specific case, look at the turnout where millions of 2020 voters didn't show up. Arab (and even non-Arambs) Democrats that felt very offended by Kamala's support for Israel didn't vote for Trump. They just didn't show up when she needed all hands on deck because they were mad at her. A lot of them probably thought she was going to win anyway, but they didn't feel like being a part of it.

*Adultery was very important in 1998, slightly important in 2016, and seems not to matter in 2024. It makes sense, because when you think about it, it is never adultery that tears families apart. It is generally trans-athletes, non-binary pronouns, and gay rights. I'm pretty sure those are the issues that broke Trump's first two marriages up.
 

Pale Rider

...and Hell followed with him.
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I can tell you this much: even the more progressive Latino men that I know absolutely DESPISE the "Latinx" term with the blazing hot fury of a million exploding suns. We may laugh at their outrage over "the woke," but it's not so funny when seemingly trivial culture war issues galvanize enough of them to throw their support behind someone like Trump.
 

MrBlud

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Imagine how angry they’ll be when they get deported to a country they aren’t from…

Like, I can understand being disinterested because someone is a white cis male. No, *their* life isn’t going to change all that much. They aren’t going to bleed out in a Hospital with a rotting fetus inside them. They aren’t going to get deported. They aren’t going to be denied hormones. Their (remaining) family in Gaza isn’t going to be blown up. They personally can probably ride it out even if they do know people who will be hurt or killed.

Being one of those groups THAT WILL happen to and voting for it (or not against it) anyway? There truly are no words.
 

Axaday

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*The ACA? Gone. Won't last a year. They don't need a concept of anything to replace it & they never will.

He will have a small majority in the Senate and we don't know yet on the House, but likely close to the same. I don't think he can control this House well enough to pass a lot of legislation and ACA is difficult. It's been the law a long time now. A lot of constituents like it.

*Legal abortion? Done for. The token state-level protections won't survive the national ban that's certainly coming.

No. This is a place where Kamala was being disingenuous. A national ban is VERY blocked. It is probably too hot to pass the House where they face reelection every 2 years, DEFINITELY too hot to pass the Senate where you have to have 60 Senators if the other party cares enough about it to Filibuster, and Dobbs makes it unConstitutional. The argument in Dobbs is that the Constitution gives the Federal Government no right to regulate a medical procedure that would not have even been mentioned in polite society at the time it was written. If a ban passed the House, the conservatives not the Supreme Court would be as nervous as the liberals.

*Gaza & Ukraine? Both leveled. And conflict will spill further across the regions. Netanyahu & Putin now know they will not be stopped.

Israel will have a pretty free hand and Gaza will have little useful help unless Iran gets heavily involved. I don't know.

I don't have any clear eye on Ukraine. While I believe it is in the USA's strong interest to stand in Ukraine, it is very much more poignantly in the interests of Poland and Germany and France and they've all been doing tall talk about how they've been getting ready for the possibility of America wussing out.

*LGBT/Civil Rights? Decapitated. cases are already cued up to topple Obergfell. Once Donald puts in his other Justices that won't come back for close to a CENTURY...

I don't know. I don't say no. Trump certainly will keep nominating hard conservative judges. But at the same time you do have to remember that while Clarence Thomas has a big mouth, all the justices aren't Clarence Thomas. And the Supreme Court doesn't just vote. They have to write an argument that makes some kind of sense in reference to the Constitution and precedents. There have been some fairly threadbare ones at times, but this issue is increasingly difficult to bottle up. There is actually a foundational problem on approach. The Supreme Court has to get a case on the docket that challenges Obergfell. Someone has to bring suit and come up with an argument (good enough for the Supreme Court to endorse) that THEY have been damaged by states being compelled to recognize gay marriages in other states. I have no idea how to craft that argument, but it isn't my job, so again I say I don't say no, but I don't see the path.

*with RFKJr in charge of Health that likely means no more vaccine mandates- on top of childhood maladies becoming full on plagues that probably ALSO means no new COVID boosters so whatever tenuous hold we had on that pandemic is out the window.

Trump would have to settle for RFK Jr being ACTING HHS Secretary. Democrats would definitely filibuster if necessary. He doesn't have the votes. The Democrats probably wouldn't HAVE to filibuster. I don't think 51 Republicans would be okay with that. But Trump was doing a lot of acting secretaries by the end of Term 1. There are time limits on acting secretaries and they don't have all the access and authority of a Senate confirmation.

*Separation of Church & State? Toast. Future graduating classes will know more about the Ten Commandments then the periodic tables.

This prediction is somewhat unclear. I expect that there has never been a graduating class in the USA that knew more about the periodic table than the Ten Commandments. The latter is shorter and much easier. You're likely talking about Oklahoma where a lot of teachers are scratching their heads wondering they're expected to work Christianity in to a trigonometry lesson. My expectation (and I am an Oklahoman) is that some teachers are going to use the latitude offered, but a lot of teachers are going to do nothing except have a Springsteen Bible in their classroom and there's never going to be any accountability about it. Walters has apparently a decent shot at becoming Secretary of Education and leaving Oklahoma behind, but in any case I don't think he ever cared about all the students learning about the Bible. He cares about demonstrating his friendliness to Christianity.

I expect the Oklahoma policy to make its way through the courts before long.

*Social Security & Medicare? Gutted. More kickbacks in their pockets; no handouts for THE POOR.

While you never know what Trump himself will try to do, the House of Representatives knows they can't throw these out. They can neglect maintenance on them for sure. But cuts come with a heavy price.

*Tariffs and mass deportations will make Dubya's Great Recession seem like a pleasant windfall.

I don't know how to evaluate this. My understanding is that Biden kept the tariffs that Trump created. At least substatially. He may expand them like he says. I think there is a reasonable chance that he will listen to advisors telling him that it'll cause inflation and the Democrats are already on record saying that tariffs will cause inflation. If he does it right out of the gate and hits recession right away, he'll be able to blame Biden. There's been an idea floating out there for some time that the economy is headed for recession, so he'll be able to effectively stick that, but if it doesn't happen for over a year or if it happens and he can't manage to get back out of it, it hurts him pretty bad. There is a chance that a clearer mandate and a term limit allow Trump to be bolder than last time, but for Trump the very worst thing is being labelled a loser or a failure.

I don't know if he will really do the mass deportations. Like the tariffs he might. But it is likely that he'll be told that it is actually much too difficult and he's already mopped himself in a corner a little bit. Trump has said there are 20 or 30 or 34 million illegal immigrants in the US. He wouldn't bat an eyelash at lying and saying that is how many he deported, but I don't think DHS would lie in their report. It is possible that Trump wouldn't mind that, because his core supporters don't fact check him, but he is not going to find anywhere near 34 million because 1) There almost certainly are not close to that many and 2) most of them have always kept a low profile whoever was President. If stories about separated families start coming out and especially if there starts to be stories of violence, this backfires on him. As I have said before, Trump does commit blunders. He doesn't always get or listen to good advice. So I don't know. He might do it. But it is dangerous for him.
 

MrBlud

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A nationwide abortion ban wouldn’t survive a filibuster. Provided they listen to Mitch and keep said Filibuster but Trump can have the FDA pull their approval of misoprostol. That coupled with the fact Doctors are too afraid to act in red states is going to kill a lot of people.

Ukraine is 100% getting hung out to dry. The US does most of the heavy lifting and Trump is going to kill as much of that as possible for Putin. They’re probably going to try to hold as much as they can but Russia will probably get to keep significant portions. I wouldn’t be surprised if China spends four years building up a Taiwan attack force and tries to take the Island in 2028 during the lame duck period between the end of the Trump Admin and whatever is next.

They allowed Trump to run AND gave him immunity despite one of those being directly against the Constitution and the other heavily hinted as a bad thing. They can write whatever they want to justify it. They did before.

Trump is probably not going to round up 30 million immigrants. Why go through the money and the trouble when he can just say he did and maybe photo op a few a year and the base will eat it up considering none of their media sources will contradict it.
 

TM2-Megatron

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I can tell you this much: even the more progressive Latino men that I know absolutely DESPISE the "Latinx" term with the blazing hot fury of a million exploding suns. We may laugh at their outrage over "the woke," but it's not so funny when seemingly trivial culture war issues galvanize enough of them to throw their support behind someone like Trump.

Not the first time I've heard this; even yesterday, someone I was watching talk about the election on YT mentioned it. Apparently the whole "Latinx" thing was used by woke white people more than anything else, and it very much annoys a lot of the Latin community, who want no part of it. Personally, I don't blame them.

I think a lot of progressive people seem to forget that much of this community have pretty traditional social and family values, and Catholicism is still pretty deeply-rooted in the culture. That'd make many uncomfortable with the idea of abortion, even if they do believe it should be available for those who need it.

The same goes for a lot of POC, to be frank, that a lot of Democrats probably think should be their naturally allies. A lot of Democrats seem to make the mistake of seeing just their colour, and nothing else. I don't personally know a heck of a lot of liberal Muslims, for instance. Their religion, like Christianity, dictates fairly conservative social values. Christianity (and Islam, depending on the country) are also very common religions amongst people from Africa. And in my experience, they aren't as laissez-faire about religion as the typical North American born Gen X or younger, all of whom pretty much grew up in a secular society.

They did an incredible amount of Republican outreach and the result was a lot of the base stayed home.

I mean, apart from the people rampant on X and on shows like The View, etc who seem to call anyone who disagrees with them misogynists, racists, xenophobes, transphobes, etc. Unfortunately, any outreach Kamala may have done is pretty much nullified, and then some, by that kind of rhetoric.

Trudeau's made the same mistake up here, casually throwing those words around to label people who disagree with him, sometimes even on minor or nonsensical issues, and he's paid for it in the polls. People aren't chanting "F*ck Trudeau" en masse at sports events and concerts because they secretly like being judged by a multi-millionaire elitist.
 

Axaday

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So Biden should say tomorrow that he rounded up and deported all the ones that came during his administration and only the ones that came during Trump's term are left.
 

Teufel

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In this specific case, look at the turnout where millions of 2020 voters didn't show up. Arab (and even non-Arambs) Democrats that felt very offended by Kamala's support for Israel didn't vote for Trump.

Link

In Dearborn, where a little more than half of the residents are of Middle Eastern descent, Donald Trump beat Kamala Harris 42.48 percent to 36.26 percent, according to the Detroit Free Press. Green Party candidate Jill Stein, who courted the Arab American community, got 18.37 percent.

In 2020, Joe Biden got 68.8 percent of the Dearborn vote compared to Trump's 29.9 percent.

In Hamtramck, another ethnic community with a sizable Muslim population, Trump fared far better this time than in 2020. On Tuesday, Harris got 46.2 percent of the vote compared to Trump's 42.7 percent. Jill Stein got at 8.96 percent, the Freep reports.

In 2020, Joe Biden won Hamtramck with 85.4 percent of the vote compared to Trump's 13.4 percent.

Hamtramck Mayor Amer Ghalib, a Democrat, formerly endorsed Trump this year.

The Trump campaign courted them, some leaders in the community endorsed Trump or said they were going to vote for him to punish the Democrats, others went with Jill Stein as a protest vote. Not sure on turnout numbers but in some of the most overwhelmingly Arab and Muslim cities they definitely swung big towards Trump.
 

PrimalxConvoy

NOT a New Member.
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I can tell you this much: even the more progressive Latino men that I know absolutely DESPISE the "Latinx" term with the blazing hot fury of a million exploding suns. We may laugh at their outrage over "the woke," but it's not so funny when seemingly trivial culture war issues galvanize enough of them to throw their support behind someone like Trump.
I'd never heard of that term until now. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

 

CoffeeHorse

Exhausted, but still standing.
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That is a thing Trump does well. For all the talk of ducking media events, he accepted a lot of invites just to meet people and hear them out. That Hamtramck mayor endorsement didn't come out of nowhere. Trump showed up. They talked. Trump came back later to open a campaign office and turn the meeting into some ongoing outreach.

It reminds me of what happened with the Haitian vote in Florida back in 2016. Trump made a visit here to meet with leaders of the Haitian-American community to court their vote. It didn't get a lot of attention because it was a private event. Not a rally. Not a speech. Closed doors. No press. No cameras. Sneaky cell phone videos ended up on the internet, of course. The whole event was just a gripe fest. It was Trump quietly listening to Haitian-Americans tell stories about ways they felt they'd been wronged by Bill Clinton's administration and/or the Clinton Foundation.

Then Trump showed up at the Al Smith Dinner and made a tortured joke about Hillary knowing it takes a village, because she's taken a number of them in Haiti. It wasn't funny and his delivery didn't help, but that wasn't the point. It was a message to the attendees of that meeting in Florida to let them know he hadn't forgotten what they told him.

Obviously he did not try to court that vote this year, but it's an example of the quieter side of his campaign outreach.
 

Axaday

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Link



The Trump campaign courted them, some leaders in the community endorsed Trump or said they were going to vote for him to punish the Democrats, others went with Jill Stein as a protest vote. Not sure on turnout numbers but in some of the most overwhelmingly Arab and Muslim cities they definitely swung big towards Trump.
Those jerks.

So I already delineated my fallback position above. These are people that you see overwhelmingly voting for Biden, so you think they are progressives, but this situation demonstrates something else. They are people whose by-far-most important issue is how the President treats Palestine and Arab nations. Whatever their other politics, they have that part in common. When Kamala doesn't support Palestine, she takes the issue off the table. One can easily say Trump will be worse, but that might not matter. What they wanted was support. If neither candidate is giving it, what now? Well, maybe inflation is their next most important issue. Or maybe they are just mad at her and they're not used to even thinking about what their next most important issue is.
 
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Anonymous X

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Trudeau's made the same mistake up here, casually throwing those words around to label people who disagree with him, sometimes even on minor or nonsensical issues, and he's paid for it in the polls. People aren't chanting "F*ck Trudeau" en masse at sports events and concerts because they secretly like being judged by a multi-millionaire elitist.
What, like your hero Trump isn’t a member of the wealthy elite?
 

Anonymous X

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Can relate to what he said about Obama in particular — I remember thinking 16 years ago that America had left a dark place at last. Now it seems not only has it gone back, it’s in a far worse off situation than before. Gains and victories are only temporary, and if you ever get a non-Trump, non-GOP president ever again, whoever it is takes the gloves off and really goes all out to entrench any progressive gains and reforms as permanently as possible.
 

Axaday

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I spend 3 hours building spreadsheets on the House races county by county. Several were too difficult to be practical but I modelled most of them (and will keep the file for next time, this time). I am working from NBC data. There are a lot of races that I think they haven't called just because they aren't looking at them very much. I call 11 more seats for Democrats and 6 GOP, bringing totals to 198-215. I mark 16 of them still too close to call, leaning split 8-9 for a total there for 206-224. And then I am still missing 5 for some reason. I will check on that later when I have data to update anyway. This is tending to look like GOP picked up some seats.
 

TM2-Megatron

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What, like your hero Trump isn’t a member of the wealthy elite?

Feel free to find a post in which I've ever said anything positive about Trump.

Although CoffeeHorse did, a few posts after mine, and he's right. That's the difference in Trump, and something he does well. He doesn't overtly judge people, which, if you'll recall through your irrational rage, is what I said people don't like.

He may be thinking all kinds of nasty things in his head, but on a surface level he appears willing to engage with anyone who's willing to walk up and talk to him.

Finding fault in Democrats isn't the same as supporting their opponents, but then that exact type of extremist opinion is exactly why they keep shooting themselves in the foot and why all the "outreach" in the world will continue to fall on deaf ears. Do you really believe that I'm pleased my own party of choice for almost 15 years has turned itself into an unelectable shitshow here in Canada, via the same kind of arrogance and unwillingness to admit when they've f*cked up?

But by all means, anonymous, keep being pissy and take out your frustration on me. It's so productive, no?
 
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Ungnome

Grand Empress of the Empire of One Square Foot.
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Yea, it's looking like a Republican trifecta at the moment. Only silver lining is the margins in both the House and the Senate are slim, which means that the few moderate Republicans that are left can potentially block some of the most extreme legislation and there's no way for them to expel Democrat members of congress. Be interesting to see how long it take the house to decide on a speaker this time around. They seem to love fighting amongst themselves in that chamber.
 

CoffeeHorse

Exhausted, but still standing.
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What incentive do any moderate Republicans have to do that though? It was one thing in 2016 when he won on the margins but didn't get the popular vote, and they already had Congress anyway. This time he flipped the Senate and it looks like he's going to end up with the popular vote, which nobody saw coming. He has an actual mandate now, for whatever.

I don't even know. There was no signature policy item this time. No "Build the wall" or "Repeal and replace Obamacare". He threw some ideas out there but nothing stands out as the big thing to do before the next midterms.
 


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