Thread of Thoughts, Questions (and Maybe Even Answers) That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread

Donocropolis

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Saw this question posted on Facebook and I realized I had never thought of it this way.

Was there anything special about Hot Rod that made him "the chosen one?" Or was it just that the Matrix was created for a specific purpose and was only ever going to open inside of Unicron, no matter who was holding it? Ultra Magnus couldn't open it on Junk, but that wasn't the right place or time. Maybe if it had been Magnus confronting Galvatron at the end of the movie, it would have opened for him then. Heck, for that matter, if Galvatron had kept hold of the Matrix and decided to use it to destroy his master, would it have opened for him?

Sure, Hot Rod got the "Prime" upgrade when it opened, but that was a special circumstance and doesn't really indicate that it's a sign of him being the chosen one. After all, it wasn't the Matrix that turned Orion Pax into Optimus Prime, that was just a physical rebuild by Alpha Trion.
 

Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
Citizen
Saw this question posted on Facebook and I realized I had never thought of it this way.

Was there anything special about Hot Rod that made him "the chosen one?" Or was it just that the Matrix was created for a specific purpose and was only ever going to open inside of Unicron, no matter who was holding it? Ultra Magnus couldn't open it on Junk, but that wasn't the right place or time. Maybe if it had been Magnus confronting Galvatron at the end of the movie, it would have opened for him then. Heck, for that matter, if Galvatron had kept hold of the Matrix and decided to use it to destroy his master, would it have opened for him?

Sure, Hot Rod got the "Prime" upgrade when it opened, but that was a special circumstance and doesn't really indicate that it's a sign of him being the chosen one. After all, it wasn't the Matrix that turned Orion Pax into Optimus Prime, that was just a physical rebuild by Alpha Trion.
It was basically an analogy of King Arthur being the one born to wield the sword Excalibur; the destined one chosen by divine right to pull the sword from the stone and become the one true king.

The problem at the time that Hasbro was oblivious to was the fact that people liked Optimus more and wanted him to be Arthur instead of Rodimus.
 

Xaaron

Active member
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Saw this question posted on Facebook and I realized I had never thought of it this way.

Was there anything special about Hot Rod that made him "the chosen one?" Or was it just that the Matrix was created for a specific purpose and was only ever going to open inside of Unicron, no matter who was holding it? Ultra Magnus couldn't open it on Junk, but that wasn't the right place or time. Maybe if it had been Magnus confronting Galvatron at the end of the movie, it would have opened for him then.

According to the Story of Binaltech, that's exactly what happened with Ultra Magnus in that timeline. He lit the darkest hour because he was the only one available who could.
 

Donocropolis

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It was basically an analogy of King Arthur being the one born to wield the sword Excalibur; the destined one chosen by divine right to pull the sword from the stone and become the one true king.

The problem at the time that Hasbro was oblivious to was the fact that people liked Optimus more and wanted him to be Arthur instead of Rodimus.

From the point of view of it being a movie (with all the narrative tropes that that implies) and with the distinct goal of making you care about the NEW toys instead of the OLD toys, yes. But my question was more "in universe."

According to the Story of Binaltech, that's exactly what happened with Ultra Magnus in that timeline. He lit the darkest hour because he was the only one available who could.

Ah, interesting! As deep as my love of all things Alternators is, I'm not really too familiar with the Binaltech storyline.


That all said, it would be interesting to see a continuity where Galvatron used the Matrix to destroy Unicron. Does the power of Primus "cleanse" Galvatron of Unicron's influence and turn him into an upgraded Megatron? What does he do after that?
 
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CoffeeHorse

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A lot could have been cleaned up if they made Ultra Magnus the doubtful one, but he usually seems like pretty decent leader material. It seems like pure chance that Hot Rod happened to be in the right place at the right time to destroy Unicron.

Maybe 'right place at the right time' is just what the Matrix likes in a leader.
 

Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
Citizen
When Magnus did it in the Story of Binaltech, however, he had to plead for the Matrix to please let him wield its power in that moment, as both he and it recognized that Magnus was not the Chosen One meant to bear the Matrix, so it was more of a case of "desperate times call for desperate measures" with the Matrix being forced to make an exception for him due to the circumstances of history having been altered by Ravage, which made it so that Hot Rod was no longer positioned to be in the right place and time to inherit the Matrix and unleash its power on Unicron as destiny had intended. In other words, things didn't play out according to destiny because of Ravage steering history off its intended course and ruining everything.
 
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Donocropolis

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When Magnus did it in the Story of Binaltech, however, he had to plead for the Matrix to please let him wield its power in that moment, as both he and it recognized that Magnus was not the Chosen One meant to bear the Matrix, so it was more of a case of "desperate times call for desperate measures" with the Matrix being forced to make an exception for him due to the circumstances of history having been altered by Ravage, which made it so that Hot Rod was no longer positioned in the right place and time to inherit the Matrix and unleash its power on Unicron as destiny had intended. In other words, things didn't play out according to destiny because of Ravage steering history off its intended course and ruining everything.

Ah! That does add another wrinkle to the whole thing. After Xaaron's comment, I went to the wiki and read the quick synopsis of the Binaltech story, but it didn't mention any of that.
 

LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
It was basically an analogy of King Arthur being the one born to wield the sword Excalibur; the destined one chosen by divine right to pull the sword from the stone and become the one true king.

The problem at the time that Hasbro was oblivious to was the fact that people liked Optimus more and wanted him to be Arthur instead of Rodimus.
The issue is that King Arthur's story is grounded in something not really applicable to Cybertronians. Arthur is the One True King because he's the rightful heir to Uther, who can reclaim his birthright and free the realm from usurpers.

The rank of Prime has never been hereditary, though, and what even does "hereditary" mean? What does "descendent" or "ancestor" or "family lineage" even mean in the context of a race of robots?

Heck, AotP emphasizing "Energon bloodlines" might actually clear that up for the first time ever.

Thing is though, Hot Rod isn't someone's long lost descendent, he's not the rightful heir to something.

He's just who the Matrix chose.

Why? It's never explained.
Personally I like the idea that it's Rodimus, not Optimus, who is the re-incarnated Thirteenth, if they feel they must have the Thirteenth be reincarnated in the modern era. Like the Matrix has been passed from steward to steward, each Prime holding it until #13 re-emerged to claim it, and that was Hot Rod/Rodimus.
It helps explain why, in the classic continuity, there are no more Primes after Rodimus. Once he got the Matrix that was it, the Matrix was finally "home." Optimus being the last of the "stewards."

If that's not your jam then I just view it as Hot Rod being a good dude with the potential to be a great leader, and Primus being all knowing was like "ok that's the guy" when viewing all of creation.
 

Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
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Ah! That does add another wrinkle to the whole thing. After Xaaron's comment, I went to the wiki and read the quick synopsis of the Binaltech story, but it didn't mention any of that.
Ravage's timeline tamperings occurred in earlier chapters.

Thing is though, Hot Rod isn't someone's long lost descendent, he's not the rightful heir to something.

He's just who the Matrix chose.

Why? It's never explained.
I feel like Simon Furman attempted to come up with an explanation when he introduced Primus as a character and all his Marvel designs depicted him in a Rodimus-like appearance, as if to say that Hot Rod was like a mortal incarnation of Primus himself.

Personally I like the idea that it's Rodimus, not Optimus, who is the re-incarnated Thirteenth, if they feel they must have the Thirteenth be reincarnated in the modern era. Like the Matrix has been passed from steward to steward, each Prime holding it until #13 re-emerged to claim it, and that was Hot Rod/Rodimus.
It helps explain why, in the classic continuity, there are no more Primes after Rodimus. Once he got the Matrix that was it, the Matrix was finally "home." Optimus being the last of the "stewards."
I get the feeling that, when the concept of the Thirteenth Prime being the original incarnation of an established Matrix bearer was thought up, that it originally was supposed to be Rodimus who would be the reincarnated Thirteenth Prime (while Optimus would instead have been like the second coming of Prima, the first Matrix bearer), but then they got cold feet and backed out of that at the last second to make the Thirteenth be Optimus instead, for fear of repeating the Rodimus hate from the 80s.
 

Xaaron

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I'm curious to read a full translation of "Binal Time" now. My recollection from the last time I read about that story was that Optimus Prime and Ultra Magnus were inside Unicron already when Prime passed the Matrix to Ultra Magnus. It was an "Anyone will do" moment. But the wiki's summary makes it sound like Magnus got the Matrix's permission and took up the quest to kill Unicron before entering his body. Maybe I read an earlier translation.

Either way, it does come down to "Fate was only a suggestion". Especially if Magnus got permission to use the Matrix before that last, most fateful moment. Nothing in BinalTech explicitly prevented Hot Rod from being there, IIRC -- the Autobots just didn't know he was the Chosen One. Instead of granting his request, the Matrix could've just said, "No Magnus, but hand me to that kid on your left."
 

Exatron

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Personally I like the idea that it's Rodimus, not Optimus, who is the re-incarnated Thirteenth, if they feel they must have the Thirteenth be reincarnated in the modern era. Like the Matrix has been passed from steward to steward, each Prime holding it until #13 re-emerged to claim it, and that was Hot Rod/Rodimus.
It helps explain why, in the classic continuity, there are no more Primes after Rodimus. Once he got the Matrix that was it, the Matrix was finally "home." Optimus being the last of the "stewards."
My take on it is similar, save for the fact that I don't care for the whole reincarnation take in general. Instead, I like to think that Primus created 13 Primes, but not all 13 at the same time. Instead, there were 12 at the start and myths about a 13th, but the actual 13th Prime didn't come into being until Hot Rod was forged and eventually received the Matrix, becoming the 13th true Prime who's destined to stand against Unicron. Everyone else between the original 12 and Rodimus was basically a steward.

Ultimately, that's basically what I'm going to have in my main display case at the end of AotP - the first 12 Primes backing up Rodimus against Unicron. Star Convoy will be off with the other G1 leaders. Which potentially could still be in the same case if I can squeeze them all in, but I think that would be really tight in there.

Setting that aside, for the actual movie itself, I never viewed it as Hot Rod being able to open the Matrix just because he happened to be in the right place at the right time. We already saw that not just anyone could open it. Sure, you could dismiss Ultra Magnus as not being in the right place, but Galvatron was right there standing on Unicron when he tried. That doesn't necessarily mean that there's only one being who could open it, but it does indicate that there's something needed beyond just being present and trying to destroy Unicron. That being the case, I always interpreted it that Hot Rod was the chosen one, and so was destined to be at the right place at the right time. That would be why the Matrix lit up so brightly when he first touched it back on Earth, and why it reacted even more strongly when he grabbed it from Galvatron. His getting separated from the others inside Unicron wasn't just a coincidence that left him the only one available, but was fate nudging him to where he needed to be. Certainly nothing conclusive, but that's how I like to interpret it.
 

Sabrblade

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My take on it is similar, save for the fact that I don't care for the whole reincarnation take in general. Instead, I like to think that Primus created 13 Primes, but not all 13 at the same time. Instead, there were 12 at the start and myths about a 13th, but the actual 13th Prime didn't come into being until Hot Rod was forged and eventually received the Matrix, becoming the 13th true Prime who's destined to stand against Unicron. Everyone else between the original 12 and Rodimus was basically a steward.
You. Yes, you! You need to go back in time to 2007~2010 and convince Hasbro to go with this take for the Thirteenth Prime, because if we absolutely have to be stuck with the Thirteenth being some super special dude fated to be the best there ever was, then this is the most brilliantly elegant way to go about it.

Otherwise, convince them to just make him be the Last Autobot from Marvel G1 instead of anyone super-duper extra special.

Setting that aside, for the actual movie itself, I never viewed it as Hot Rod being able to open the Matrix just because he happened to be in the right place at the right time. We already saw that not just anyone could open it. Sure, you could dismiss Ultra Magnus as not being in the right place, but Galvatron was right there standing on Unicron when he tried. That doesn't necessarily mean that there's only one being who could open it, but it does indicate that there's something needed beyond just being present and trying to destroy Unicron. That being the case, I always interpreted it that Hot Rod was the chosen one, and so was destined to be at the right place at the right time. That would be why the Matrix lit up so brightly when he first touched it back on Earth, and why it reacted even more strongly when he grabbed it from Galvatron. His getting separated from the others inside Unicron wasn't just a coincidence that left him the only one available, but was fate nudging him to where he needed to be. Certainly nothing conclusive, but that's how I like to interpret it.
Pretty much this. The Matrix glowed when he picked it up after Optimus dropped it, and he had a weird inkling that the Matrix could stop the "monster planet" that was headed for Cybertron. This was meant to foreshadow his specialness in being the one chosen by fate to be the Matrix's one true bearer. His being where he was when he grabbed it at the end of the movie was no accident. He was in the right place at the right time because he was supposed to be, as ordained by the ancient prophecy Optimus spoke of on his deathbed.
 

CoffeeHorse

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If they played it right, Hot Rod catching the Matrix could have been a demonstration of why he's the chosen one, not just that he is. They could have played him as a bot with no impulse control. It's his flaw at times, but it works for him. His reflexes move to catch the Matrix, he's gonna be the one to catch it. It's time to move, he moves. He's "just got this feeling", he goes with it. It's his flaw at times, but it's where his potential is. As Rodimus Prime his impulsiveness could have been refined into decisiveness.

But then the rest of the movie shows Ultra Magnus being totally decisive, and then Rodimus gets confidence issues. This story is so close yet so far.
 

lastmaximal

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I get the feeling that, when the concept of the Thirteenth Prime being the original incarnation of an established Matrix bearer was thought up, that it originally was supposed to be Rodimus who would be the reincarnated Thirteenth Prime (while Optimus would instead have been like the second coming of Prima, the first Matrix bearer), but then they got cold feet and backed out of that at the last second to make the Thirteenth be Optimus instead, for fear of repeating the Rodimus hate from the 80s.
I can picture this happening, but I think it's far more likely that they had Optimus in mind from the get-go. Especially since he was going to be front and center for Aligned and particularly Prime, the show that would supposedly explore "what it means to be a Prime".
 

lastmaximal

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If they played it right, Hot Rod catching the Matrix could have been a demonstration of why he's the chosen one, not just that he is. They could have played him as a bot with no impulse control. It's his flaw at times, but it works for him. His reflexes move to catch the Matrix, he's gonna be the one to catch it. It's time to move, he moves. He's "just got this feeling", he goes with it. It's his flaw at times, but it's where his potential is. As Rodimus Prime his impulsiveness could have been refined into decisiveness.

But then the rest of the movie shows Ultra Magnus being totally decisive, and then Rodimus gets confidence issues. This story is so close yet so far.
I think Hot Rod does declare that they have to go after Unicron and the Matrix and it'll solve everything, justifying that with "I just have this feeling". Not sure if I recall any particular confidence issues within the movie.

I do agree that Magnus is fairly competent (more so than fan memeing of "I can't deal with that now" would lead one to think) and decisive, with understandable reasoning (under threat from Galvatron as one of the survivors of who knows how many Autobots are left = open Matrix).
 

LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
I can picture this happening, but I think it's far more likely that they had Optimus in mind from the get-go. Especially since he was going to be front and center for Aligned and particularly Prime, the show that would supposedly explore "what it means to be a Prime".
I think our own @Powered Convoy confirmed that "Optimus is the Thirteenth" wasn't the plan from the start, but once they began working on the canonized roster they couldn't think of anyone else for the Thirteenth to be, so they made it Optimus with the hopes that someone else would retcon it later.

And then multiple continuities all put forward alternative ideas (all of them better then it just being Optimus), but Hasbro's stuck with it being Optimus for whatever reason.
 

Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
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I can picture this happening, but I think it's far more likely that they had Optimus in mind from the get-go. Especially since he was going to be front and center for Aligned and particularly Prime, the show that would supposedly explore "what it means to be a Prime".
The thing is, the Exodus novel (which was the one piece of Aligned media that was the closest in spirit to the original backstory described in the Binder of Revelation) leaned heavily into the idea of Orion Pax being just an ordinary guy who was called to be something more, not because of any preordained divinity, but because he was just that pure-hearted and likeable. At no point anywhere in that novel, in its video game adaptation WFC, or in its successor novel Exiles, is the idea of Orion Pax being the reincarnation of an ancient holy demigod ever hinted at.

The Prime cartoon even had Optimus refer to the Thirteen as though he was a completely different Prime from all of them. And the show really ignored a lot of things that were set up in the lore of the Binder (Unicron being the biggest deviation, as he was not supposed to be Earth at all). The cartoon really wanted to do its own thing. The main reason anything from the Prime cartoon matched up lore-wise with any of the novels or video games was because of Mairghread Scott being part of the writing team, as she was the only one on the team who actually read the Exodus novel and had any real familiarity with Transformers lore in general. The rest of the team was largely made up of people who were not as familiar with Transformers and that was done on purpose, because the showrunners wanted Prime to have more of a fresh perspective that would try new things instead of retreading old ground.

As for why I feel like The Thirteenth was originally going to be the preincarnation of Rodimus while Optimus was going to be akin to Prima, well... Let's just say I've read some things that cannot be publicly disclosed at this time (PMs on the other hand...)

Anyway, backing up a bit to earlier in this thread, regarding Rodimus's character arc in season 3 and how it could have been better structured, let's face it: we were never going to get anything better structured because character arcs really weren't a thing in 1980s American children's cartoons. Serialized storytelling was rare outside of multi-parters, and season-long arcs were really only a thing on American television in soap operas and anime dubs (and that's only if the dubbers were able to recognize those arcs and faithfully adapt them into the English version). The earliest American-made children's TV cartoon that I can think of that actually had season-long character development arcs was The Legend of Prince Valiant, which didn't first air until 1991.

Sure, we got cases like "The Search for Alpha Trion", "The Key to Vector Sigma", and "War Dawn" containing interconnected plot points across the second season of the G1 cartoon, which were then built upon and further expanded in the season 3-4 episodes "Five Faces of Darkness", "Forever Is a Long Time Coming", and "The Rebirth", which all certainly gives the appearance of an ongoing narrative. But none of that was planned out from the beginning, and a number of connections between these episodes were made after the fact by the story editors instead of the individual episodes' writers (particularly Ariel in "War Dawn" was never originally planned to be pre-Elita One; she was supposed to die along with Dion). Everyone was basically making things up as they went along, flying by the seat of their pants and throwing things at the wall to see what would stick. And that included Rodimus's portrayal across the third season.
 
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LordGigaIce

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Well that's one reason I think limiting Rodimus' doubt to confidence arc to FFoD would have been ideal. The character arc is confined to a five part story clearly labelled as a five part story and when it's over Rodimus is a more confident leader who can have stand-alone adventures and not have to learn the same lessons about believing in himself over and over.
 

Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
Citizen
Well that's one reason I think limiting Rodimus' doubt to confidence arc to FFoD would have been ideal. The character arc is confined to a five part story clearly labelled as a five part story and when it's over Rodimus is a more confident leader who can have stand-alone adventures and not have to learn the same lessons about believing in himself over and over.
You won't get any argument from me about that. Unfortunately, we're talking about writers who tended to keep the characters static and learn the same lessons over and over again (if they learned any at all, that is), such as Starscream repeating his same schtick over and over again despite his countless failures and humiliations, or the non-Silverbolt Aerialbots having to learn more than once to not to be jerks. This was the kind of writing that '80s American kids cartoons were known for, and the G1 cartoon was a product of that era. For better or for worse. 😐
 

CoffeeHorse

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Stuff like this is why I want to see a G1 rewrite that's actually a G1 rewrite and not something TF07 inspired but blockier. So many pieces of a story are there. It's a clumsy, repetitive, self-contradictory mess of a story, and it's so often only a mild rewrite away from totally working.
 


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