A Long Time Ago In a Galaxy Far, Far Away.... - Star Wars General Discussion
- Thread starter SHIELD Agent 47
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Yeah, I had to put my youngest on my shoulders like she was Pikachu. MY six and eight year olds were fine though.
So, I've been thinking for a long time about what made the Original trilogy such a watershed moment; why did this story resonate so much when none of the subsequent trilogies or movies have really captured that same spark (and I now have the enforced spare time to set these thoughts down).
What I've come to is that the OT is a story about three worlds colliding:
The world of the Force, with Ben and Yoda and Vader and the Emperor, with Luke caught in the middle.
The world of Politics, with Leia's Rebel Alliance versus the Empire represented by Vader and an army of faceless troopers and increasingly irrelevant officers (everyone remebers Grand Moff Tarkin, some people remember Admiral Piett, and nobody remembers Moff Jerjerrod).
And the world of the Fringe, with Han, Chewie, and Lando versus the likes of Jabba the Hutt and Boba Fett.
Note first that each of these worlds has its own internal conflict (Light Side/Dark Side, Alliance/Empire, and Han/Jabba) --each of which could carry a lesser movie, but this trilogy is about these worlds colliding and getting mixed up in each other, mainly through the actions of our three protagonists:
Luke, most notably, starts out on the Fringe ("If there's a bright centre to the universe, you're on the planet that is farthest from"), then joins the Rebellion, then leaves the Rebellion in ESB to begin his Jedi training (then returns in RotJ, only to leave again a few minutes later to take care of more Jedi business).
Leia starts out carrying the fate of the entire Rebellion on her shoulders (and searching for a Jedi, specifically to drag him into the fight he's been sitting out of), but by RotJ she's pulling off unsanctioned ops with Lando and Chewie while scoffing at high-priority Rebel missions, willing to let someone else carry the entire weight of the Rebellion.
Han starts out firmly on the Fringe ("I'm not in it for your revolution [...] I expect to be well-paid"), but by RotJ is a Rebel General, taking on the exact same kind of fate-of-the-Rebellion missions Leia once did.
Note that being able to walk between worlds is the mark of the Trickster Hero archetype, and it's these exchanges that end up resolving each of these internal conflicts; Luke destroys the Death Star not by being a hot-shot pilot, but by being a Jedi. Han (a smuggler-turned-general) and Lando (a con-artist-turned-politician-turned-warrior) are the ones who kill the second Death Star, and former-Senator Leia Organa is the Hutt-slayer who ended the mighty Jabba and threw the criminal underworld into disarray.
None of the villains cross between world like this, with the single exception of Vader himself. The first time we see him, he's acting as part of the Imperial war machine; a soldier taking orders from a ranking military officer, but already with a link to the Jedi, given his vendetta against Kenobi. In ESB, his position has changed; he's no longer a military man, but a mystic, genuflecting in front of his master. It's Vader who calls in the bounty hunters (despite the Empire's official stance of not needing such "scum"), makes (and alters) deals with local businesspeople, and even generously offers to comp Fett for his expenses. In RotJ, Vader flip-flops between military go-between and Dark Jedi, relaying the Emperor's orders to subordinates even as he expounds on the power of the Dark Side. This adept walking between worlds is a subtle clue indicating that Vader isn't like the other villains in this trilogy; he still acts like a thematic hero --confirming for us that Anakin Skywalker was still in there somewhere.
(Note that, for all Palpatine is called the Emperor, we rarely if ever see him actually interacting with the Empire. His presence strikes fear into his subordinates, but in the OT, the only people he actually speaks to directly onscreen are Vader and Luke. The only time he speaks to others is when he tells the guards to leave. Even when Jerjerrod is standing right there, Palpatine doesn't even look at him.)
None of the Prequels/Sequels have really captured this: the Prequels came close with Anakin (going from slave on the Fringe to Jedi Knight), and the Sequels with Rey (again, going from Fringer to Jedi), but none of them really centred the world-walking Trickster Hero archetype. All the transformations we see in those movies are still within context; Padme goes from a senator to a warrior and back, but remains ensconced in the political realm, and Finn just goes from a soldier for the First Order to a soldier for the Resistance.
The only other world-walking Tricksters in Star Wars. . . are Ahsoka, Kanan, Ezra, and Sabine.
Ahsoka and Kanan both independently go from Padawan to ronin/smuggler/civilian to rebel and back to Jedi (ending up as better Jedi because of it). Ezra was a street rat who joined a rogue band of rebels and then became a Jedi nomad. Sabine has been a soldier all her life (first for Mandalore, then the Empire, then the Rebellion), and is now (in Ahsoka) taking her first steps toward being a Jedi.
(Notably, there were elements of this to Thrawn in the EU, with his artistic awareness, tendency to use disguises/misdirection, and his academic study of the Force and its associated beliefs [even if not a Jedi himself, he made it a point to understand them] --which is why he became such a one-of-a-kind villain in the first place.)
What I've come to is that the OT is a story about three worlds colliding:
The world of the Force, with Ben and Yoda and Vader and the Emperor, with Luke caught in the middle.
The world of Politics, with Leia's Rebel Alliance versus the Empire represented by Vader and an army of faceless troopers and increasingly irrelevant officers (everyone remebers Grand Moff Tarkin, some people remember Admiral Piett, and nobody remembers Moff Jerjerrod).
And the world of the Fringe, with Han, Chewie, and Lando versus the likes of Jabba the Hutt and Boba Fett.
Note first that each of these worlds has its own internal conflict (Light Side/Dark Side, Alliance/Empire, and Han/Jabba) --each of which could carry a lesser movie, but this trilogy is about these worlds colliding and getting mixed up in each other, mainly through the actions of our three protagonists:
Luke, most notably, starts out on the Fringe ("If there's a bright centre to the universe, you're on the planet that is farthest from"), then joins the Rebellion, then leaves the Rebellion in ESB to begin his Jedi training (then returns in RotJ, only to leave again a few minutes later to take care of more Jedi business).
Leia starts out carrying the fate of the entire Rebellion on her shoulders (and searching for a Jedi, specifically to drag him into the fight he's been sitting out of), but by RotJ she's pulling off unsanctioned ops with Lando and Chewie while scoffing at high-priority Rebel missions, willing to let someone else carry the entire weight of the Rebellion.
Han starts out firmly on the Fringe ("I'm not in it for your revolution [...] I expect to be well-paid"), but by RotJ is a Rebel General, taking on the exact same kind of fate-of-the-Rebellion missions Leia once did.
Note that being able to walk between worlds is the mark of the Trickster Hero archetype, and it's these exchanges that end up resolving each of these internal conflicts; Luke destroys the Death Star not by being a hot-shot pilot, but by being a Jedi. Han (a smuggler-turned-general) and Lando (a con-artist-turned-politician-turned-warrior) are the ones who kill the second Death Star, and former-Senator Leia Organa is the Hutt-slayer who ended the mighty Jabba and threw the criminal underworld into disarray.
None of the villains cross between world like this, with the single exception of Vader himself. The first time we see him, he's acting as part of the Imperial war machine; a soldier taking orders from a ranking military officer, but already with a link to the Jedi, given his vendetta against Kenobi. In ESB, his position has changed; he's no longer a military man, but a mystic, genuflecting in front of his master. It's Vader who calls in the bounty hunters (despite the Empire's official stance of not needing such "scum"), makes (and alters) deals with local businesspeople, and even generously offers to comp Fett for his expenses. In RotJ, Vader flip-flops between military go-between and Dark Jedi, relaying the Emperor's orders to subordinates even as he expounds on the power of the Dark Side. This adept walking between worlds is a subtle clue indicating that Vader isn't like the other villains in this trilogy; he still acts like a thematic hero --confirming for us that Anakin Skywalker was still in there somewhere.
(Note that, for all Palpatine is called the Emperor, we rarely if ever see him actually interacting with the Empire. His presence strikes fear into his subordinates, but in the OT, the only people he actually speaks to directly onscreen are Vader and Luke. The only time he speaks to others is when he tells the guards to leave. Even when Jerjerrod is standing right there, Palpatine doesn't even look at him.)
None of the Prequels/Sequels have really captured this: the Prequels came close with Anakin (going from slave on the Fringe to Jedi Knight), and the Sequels with Rey (again, going from Fringer to Jedi), but none of them really centred the world-walking Trickster Hero archetype. All the transformations we see in those movies are still within context; Padme goes from a senator to a warrior and back, but remains ensconced in the political realm, and Finn just goes from a soldier for the First Order to a soldier for the Resistance.
The only other world-walking Tricksters in Star Wars. . . are Ahsoka, Kanan, Ezra, and Sabine.
Ahsoka and Kanan both independently go from Padawan to ronin/smuggler/civilian to rebel and back to Jedi (ending up as better Jedi because of it). Ezra was a street rat who joined a rogue band of rebels and then became a Jedi nomad. Sabine has been a soldier all her life (first for Mandalore, then the Empire, then the Rebellion), and is now (in Ahsoka) taking her first steps toward being a Jedi.
(Notably, there were elements of this to Thrawn in the EU, with his artistic awareness, tendency to use disguises/misdirection, and his academic study of the Force and its associated beliefs [even if not a Jedi himself, he made it a point to understand them] --which is why he became such a one-of-a-kind villain in the first place.)
No money in it for him. Plus if he stayed to be a leader then he stays around Leia. He knew it was best to split town and let things just play out.
Well, after seeing the line fizzle out this last year, Star Wars Mission Fleet is out. But 4" Epic Heroes are IN! Due after Christmas (January 2024)
yakfaceforums.com
Bad news first: Figures are 5 POA. I have to say I'm a bit disappointed at that given how solid the Marvel figures have turned out (and Spin Master AND Mattel are able to do better at the same scale/target demographic). Not sure what the exact reasoning might be. Could be anything from trying not to compete with TVC (and its $17.99 MSRP), to Hasbro wanting to keep costs down because of the difference in licensing between Star Wars and Marvel.
That said, I like the packaging style, and I think they have a solid slate of figures for the initial offering. My only real nitpick on selection of characters would be another villain, or named character more relevant than Darth Vader, even though he IS an essential offering for the brand. Deco is nice enough for this price point, and it is interesting to see that the Stormtrooper and Mando have ports on their arms (future deluxe figure plans?).
So far, images have been shown of the single figure assortment:
Darth Vader
Luke Skywalker (with Grogu backpack)
Ashoka Tano
Stormtrooper
Grogu (with hover pram, which opens and closes)
Mandolorian (I will say the less saturated $5 check out lane 5.5" Mando I got a couple years ago DOES look better against this)
Deluxe figure assortment:
Sabine Wren (with detachable jetpack, energy shield, retractable wrist blade, lightsaber accessories)
Paz Vizsla (with detachable jetpack, projectile launching "gatling cannon", wrist flame thrower with effects piece (!))
Plus vehicles at the $20-25 range (speeder bikes of some sort, probably) and $35 range (Mando Star fighter, my guess)
Star Wars 4″ Epic Hero Series Revealed | Yakface.com
yakfaceforums.com
Bad news first: Figures are 5 POA. I have to say I'm a bit disappointed at that given how solid the Marvel figures have turned out (and Spin Master AND Mattel are able to do better at the same scale/target demographic). Not sure what the exact reasoning might be. Could be anything from trying not to compete with TVC (and its $17.99 MSRP), to Hasbro wanting to keep costs down because of the difference in licensing between Star Wars and Marvel.
That said, I like the packaging style, and I think they have a solid slate of figures for the initial offering. My only real nitpick on selection of characters would be another villain, or named character more relevant than Darth Vader, even though he IS an essential offering for the brand. Deco is nice enough for this price point, and it is interesting to see that the Stormtrooper and Mando have ports on their arms (future deluxe figure plans?).
So far, images have been shown of the single figure assortment:
Darth Vader
Luke Skywalker (with Grogu backpack)
Ashoka Tano
Stormtrooper
Grogu (with hover pram, which opens and closes)
Mandolorian (I will say the less saturated $5 check out lane 5.5" Mando I got a couple years ago DOES look better against this)
Deluxe figure assortment:
Sabine Wren (with detachable jetpack, energy shield, retractable wrist blade, lightsaber accessories)
Paz Vizsla (with detachable jetpack, projectile launching "gatling cannon", wrist flame thrower with effects piece (!))
Plus vehicles at the $20-25 range (speeder bikes of some sort, probably) and $35 range (Mando Star fighter, my guess)
Did it fizzle? It seemed to me that they released everything (or nearly so) that could be done in the opening wave. I appreciated it. I am leery of starting something like that for fear that they won't finish, but they put it all out at once and I got everything I wanted.
Launched in 2020, Mission Fleet puttered along the next couple of years. Aside from the Republic Shuttle, there hadn’t been any new releases since last spring. AFAIK, the Airspeeder never hit retail, and the Inquisitor Shuttle is MIA since revealed LAST YEAR. And that’s on TOP of a huge dump at Ollies. There are entire waves being dumped that I never saw at retail (Luke w/Grogu X-wing, ObiWan w/Eopie, etc).
Mission Fleet clearly didn’t connect with consumers, despite valiant efforts by Hasbro and retailers. Which is probably why we’re getting these new Epic Scale offerings.
I just want someone to make a diecast set of every official TIE variant that appears in canon media. I tried with the Titaniums, but they ended too early. I tried with Hot Wheels Starships, but never found some models at retail and never grabbed them online. Thinking about trying again with Starships Select (I have a chase TIE Fighter and a TIE Interceptor so far), but they are pricey, and I don't know if it's worth trying again. I see Vader's TIE and the First Order 2 seat TIE all the time at the moment if I choose to complete the line, but I feel like the fringe models won't show up in this line (the TIE Striker, for instance).
I just want a big set. I don't care if it's $100. Give me everything all at once, maybe with a fancy interlocking display base or something.
I just want a big set. I don't care if it's $100. Give me everything all at once, maybe with a fancy interlocking display base or something.
Jazwares is doing some damn fine stuff in their Action Fleet revival, Micro Galaxy Squadron. It’s not without its own quibbles (screw you chase figures!), but they HAVE been hitting some deeper cuts than Hasbro or Mattel have been willing to make the past few years.
Here’s Series V, featuring a U-Wing, Special Forces FO TIE, B-Wing and a V-19!
Jazwares’ Star Wars Micro Galaxy Squadron Series V
www.starwars.com
Heh, I just realized I thought that's what we were talking about already! Mission Fleet/Action Fleet... ah well. My main point still stands - those are nice but still a little too big. The Hot Wheels-sized die-cast vehicles are where it's at for me. I recognize that (as usual) I appear to be in the minority because Hasbro had a hard time keeping the line going back in the day and Mattel hasn't done much better. I recall them saying - in answer to complaints of the endless repaints - that they were pretty expensive to manufacture and the repaints were necessary, which ultimately resulted in the line languishing on pegs.
But a boy can dream!
But a boy can dream!
Jazwares makes “Micro Galaxy Squadron”, not Action Fleet 
Mission Fleet is the pseudo cartoonish (like, less exaggerated versions of the old Galactic Heroes Preschool line) 2.5” figure line Hasbro threw out to replace the DOA cartoon styled Galaxy of Adventures 5” figures.
I think Mission Fleet had potential, but I think it floundered the same reason I wouldn’t be surprised to see Epic Heroes suffer within the Next year or two- Disney is going to keep all its cards close to their chest, and Hasbro won’t be able to capitalize on anything new. Hasbro will always be “a year behind” because of how Disney handles Star Wars and Marvel. And given Star Wars’ purported premium license cost…I’m not sure Hasbro’s getting the best deal here. Especially when Disney gets on their high horse to push lackluster series (Book of Boba Fett, ObiWan) or ones that aren’t well suited to a kids tie in (Andor).
It just feels like such a disconnect going on, it has become baffling. I see Spin Master put out modest, but well rounded, product lines for DC while still maintaining a banger Core Batman line. Mattel managed to strike a solid balance with humans by packing them with Dinos in the Jurassic lines. Jazwares 4” Fortnite toys are still going, even as Hasbro’s premium 6” is getting clearanced out.
And all those lines have more robust character selections and articulation than what Hasbro is offering, especially in Star Wars. And it has become increasingly hard to tell if this issues are coming from Disney or a very conservative position Hasbro has with legit “kids toys”, compared to their ”collectibles disguised as kids toys” lines like Black, Legends or even Generations.
Mission Fleet is the pseudo cartoonish (like, less exaggerated versions of the old Galactic Heroes Preschool line) 2.5” figure line Hasbro threw out to replace the DOA cartoon styled Galaxy of Adventures 5” figures.
I think Mission Fleet had potential, but I think it floundered the same reason I wouldn’t be surprised to see Epic Heroes suffer within the Next year or two- Disney is going to keep all its cards close to their chest, and Hasbro won’t be able to capitalize on anything new. Hasbro will always be “a year behind” because of how Disney handles Star Wars and Marvel. And given Star Wars’ purported premium license cost…I’m not sure Hasbro’s getting the best deal here. Especially when Disney gets on their high horse to push lackluster series (Book of Boba Fett, ObiWan) or ones that aren’t well suited to a kids tie in (Andor).
It just feels like such a disconnect going on, it has become baffling. I see Spin Master put out modest, but well rounded, product lines for DC while still maintaining a banger Core Batman line. Mattel managed to strike a solid balance with humans by packing them with Dinos in the Jurassic lines. Jazwares 4” Fortnite toys are still going, even as Hasbro’s premium 6” is getting clearanced out.
And all those lines have more robust character selections and articulation than what Hasbro is offering, especially in Star Wars. And it has become increasingly hard to tell if this issues are coming from Disney or a very conservative position Hasbro has with legit “kids toys”, compared to their ”collectibles disguised as kids toys” lines like Black, Legends or even Generations.
Disney is out of touch with reailty of late, Marvel is no longer what it was, Star Wars is pretty much dead, retailers aren't stocking the brands that much, compared to their rivals, Disney simply has no clue what they are doing in general, under poor leadership and that is the reailty of things!
:eyeroll
Anyhoo, looking through the various ships introduced in Ahsoka, there are some great starfighter-sized options for the new Epic Heroes line. I'd love to see the E-wing, LAAT, Fiend and Guard starfighters. I'd also be down for Ahsoka's T-6, but it'd need to be bigger than those price-points likely allow.
Anyhoo, looking through the various ships introduced in Ahsoka, there are some great starfighter-sized options for the new Epic Heroes line. I'd love to see the E-wing, LAAT, Fiend and Guard starfighters. I'd also be down for Ahsoka's T-6, but it'd need to be bigger than those price-points likely allow.
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I have MUCH higher expectation of most of those ships being released under Micro Galaxy Squadron.
For Epic Heroes, here are my bets, assuming Hasbro had ANY advance information:
Small Vehicles (19.99-21.99)- Speeders and small mounts. A classic Speeder bike with Scout is pretty high. If Hasbro knew about the wolves from Ashoka, it would be A good way to get a Baylan Skoll into the line
For the larger ship class (34.99), let’s face it, it’s going to be the Mando N1. Shin Hati’s fighter would be a nice compliment, but I don’t see them doing more than one per season.
Bad Batch is coming back, so I could see the fall line up getting refreshed to focus on them, maybe adding the “big boi” $12.99 assortment for Wrecker and Dark Troopers.
For Epic Heroes, here are my bets, assuming Hasbro had ANY advance information:
Small Vehicles (19.99-21.99)- Speeders and small mounts. A classic Speeder bike with Scout is pretty high. If Hasbro knew about the wolves from Ashoka, it would be A good way to get a Baylan Skoll into the line
For the larger ship class (34.99), let’s face it, it’s going to be the Mando N1. Shin Hati’s fighter would be a nice compliment, but I don’t see them doing more than one per season.
Bad Batch is coming back, so I could see the fall line up getting refreshed to focus on them, maybe adding the “big boi” $12.99 assortment for Wrecker and Dark Troopers.
Yes, given that everything else stays the same. They just set the story in a different future than I wanted entirely. I would have left Palpatine dead somehow, given Han and Luke and Leia successful peaceful careers and then made the theme of the sequel trilogy be that every generation has new threats and new heroes need to rise to meet them.
Oh, wow. I noodled out a possible outline for EpVII a long time ago now, back when such things were pipe dreams rather than settled history. And while one aspect actually carried over to post-2014 Canon -- the search for a missing Luke Skywalker (though he left known space for entirely different reasons -- if you know something of his Legends-EU career, you might guess why) -- I was largely content to let the classic cast rest and build a new generation with some legacy support.
The core heroes would have been the Solo children, with the youngest of them grappling with an overly important name and all the baggage that comes with it. C-3PO would have been dragged along, complaining as always, but partnered with him would have been Anakin Solo's R6 unit -- a new-generation droid awed to be in the presence of an Unsung Hero. And Threepio wouldn't know how to deal with a droid that treats him with such reverence.
I'd hoped the studio would have a big enough dump truck of money (as we found out, there was one) to get Denis Lawson back as General Wedge Antilles, who (while somewhat chagrined that the shaky galactic situation doesn't let him retire as he wanted) would provide some valuable logistical support as well as provide a recurring connection to All That Came Before.
A more far-out-idea I had was that Boba Fett would eventually have succumbed to cancer (as hinted at in the short story "Last One Standing", but not before passing the armour and name on to another -- so that when the character reappeared it would cause much speculation -- and even more when the audience finds out it's neither Bulloch nor Morrison under the helmet.
There would, of course, have been groups trying to disrupt the peace, prophecies, people trying to figure out just what a maddeningly vague Force wants, sword fights, and at least one person obsessed with making young Solo "the man his grandfather wasn't": All the business one would expect. But the reason I preferred Legacy to the Sequel Trilogy was that it was a remix, rather than a retread or a deconstruction (not that SW isn't ripe for a deconstruction, but the Bridging film of a long-awaited trilogy may not be the best place to do that, Mr. "Who-Needs-Story-Group-Notes-I-Am-An-Artist!". Now Shadows of Mindor, on the other hand....)
