Christian Evangelicals - not all are made equal

Nevermore

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There are some political outliers who, surprisingly enough, hold progressive political views which they actually justify with Bible quotes, such as opposing the death penalty or supporting immigrants. Some even go so far as consider abandoning the "evangelical" label, not because they think it no longer applies to them, but because they don't like the larger political connotations that are linked to the term these days.

I personally maintain that believing in a fairytale book is a silly thing, but as long as these people do the right thing, I can totally live with that.
 

Pocket

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The funny thing is that the "Evangelical" label was coined by people who were trying to distance themselves from the religious ultraconservatives of their day, the Fundamentalists.

Time is a flat circle.
 

Nevermore

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Might expand the scope of this thread to Catholics. Michigan State Senator Mallory McMorrow, who dscribes herself as a "straight white suburban Christian mom", is fighting hard to reclaim all those titles from the Republicans, all the while standing up for marginalized groups such as the LGBTQ+ community and black people.
 

Kup

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I personally maintain that believing in a fairytale book is a silly thing, but as long as these people do the right thing, I can totally live with that.
Food for thought.

I'm a pastor who lies politically slightly left of center. Recognizing the need for love and compassion, and hoping that one day non-belivers might see Jesus the way I believe He was meant to be seen, I'm very careful with the words I use. I know that Christians on the whole are looked down upon by the world-at-large, especially since 2016 so I get that some disparaging comments are self-inflicted wounds.

That being said, I'm curious: would you apply the same label to the Torah or Quran? And, if the answer is yes, why do you feel that applying a label to any faith's holy book is the right way to convince them you're right?
 

wonko the sane?

You may test that assumption at your convinience.
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Food for thought: why do you need a book to tell you to be a good person? Not aimed at you, personally, kup, but as a statement to religion in general. You would think that in the context of a greater society: not being an absolute dick to everyone around you, exploiting them, robbing them, oppressing them (some of them to the point of KILLING THEMSELVES.) would be a good way to go about things.

Part of the reason that religion in north america is looked down upon (again, as whole, and including all the major religions, not just christianity.) is because there's a minority of people screaming about those same holy books and scriptures, claiming a moral high ground, while openly being the most ridiculous hypocrites possible. You can't claim your god loves everyone, while supporting politicians and ideology that drive minorities in the population to self harm and suicide. You can't claim your god wants peace, while actively meddling in the affairs of other nations and funding terrorist groups. You can't claim your god is righteous while openly having a double standard as to whom benefits from that righteousness and whom is paying for it.

The good that most religious groups and individuals do (and there's a lot of it.) doesn't get the press the liars, the cheats, the narcissists and the bigots do. That's a failure of society and not religion. Where religion fails is by not actively, constantly, calling out the minority in their population that is just ruining it for everyone else.

If you need a book to tell you not to lie, cheat, steal, or harm: Most have no problem with that. So long as you actually abide by the book and aren't lying, cheating, stealing and harming. The problem is with the folks whom are beating you with that book, screaming about how everyone but them is a sinner, while desperately trying to hide all their crimes against man and god.

When mattress stores make more room for refugees than mega-churches do, we should worship posturpedic and not yahweh.
 

Nevermore

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That being said, I'm curious: would you apply the same label to the Torah or Quran? And, if the answer is yes, why do you feel that applying a label to any faith's holy book is the right way to convince them you're right?
I consider all religions to be essentially widely accepted superstitions, but I'm not actively seeking out to convince believers that their religion is wrong. As long as those people do not cause harm, it's live and let live as far as I'm concerned. If they happen to use their religion as inspiration to be genuinely good people, all the more power to them.

The only people I have a problem with are zealots, aggressive "I'm gonna make you my brother, even if it is over your dead body" missionaries and bigots who take pleasure in making other people's lives miserable and justify their actions with their deity's alleged will.
 

Pocket

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The Bible: "There is none righteous, no, not one"

John Calvin: "We take nothing from the womb but pure filth. The seething spring of sin is so deep and abundant that vices are always bubbling up form it to bespatter and stain what is otherwise pure.... it is certain that there is no one who is not covered with infinite filth."

People who claim to believe in the Bible and follow John Calvin: "It's me, I'm the perfect one."
 

TrnsfrmGod

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And then there's her.

Haven't watched the video, but based solely on the blurb "Satan's controlling the church", I'm going to point out that that's the same reasoning Putin is using to justify what's going on in Ukraine.

EDIT: Having now read the article, I'm particularly struck by her saying this:
“The church is not doing its job, and it’s not adhering to the teachings of Christ, and it’s not adhering to what the word of God says we’re supposed to do and how we’re supposed to live.”

Matthew 25: 34-40
Then the king will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?'
And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'

Goodness, it's almost like she hasn't read, or even heard from, the book that is the basis of her faith!
(Yes, I know what you're going to say, and I agree)
 
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G.B.Blackrock

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Food for thought: why do you need a book to tell you to be a good person? Not aimed at you, personally, kup, but as a statement to religion in general. You would think that in the context of a greater society: not being an absolute dick to everyone around you, exploiting them, robbing them, oppressing them (some of them to the point of KILLING THEMSELVES.) would be a good way to go about things.
I'm not Kup, but as a seminary-trained person who was going to be clergy at one point (and whose wife is clergy), I find that this is simply the wrong question. I don't suggest that anyone "need(s) a book to tell you to be a good person." My faith isn't really about "being a good person." It's about what I believe to be true about God and the world. Or, perhaps more explicitly in faith-based language, it's about what I believe God has revealed to be true about God and the world.

I certainly also believe that my faith does call me to "be a good person," but that's putting the cart before the horse, so to speak.

That said, at least for Christians, if someone turns out not to be a good person (even by the standards of the non-Christian world), I'd say that's a pretty good argument that what they believe about God and the world is wrong.
 

The Mighty Mollusk

Scream all you like, 'cause we're all mad here
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As an atheist, I have no problem with religion. I don't believe in it, but hey, you do your thing and I'll do mine. I only have a problem with people who try to weaponize their faith.

Unfortunately, I live in America, home to ever-more-outspoken "Christians" who clearly have never actually sat down to read the Bible but are more than happy to try to beat you to death with it.
 

Rust

Slightly Off
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Goodness, it's almost like she hasn't read, or even heard from, the book that is the basis of her faith!

I can't remember where I first heard it, but one of the more profound remarks on religious belief/doctrine that has stuck with me is this:

"Woe be to any who claims to hear the voice of God, and by all coincidences, It speaks in their own voice."
 

diamondgirl

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Per Axaday:

Catholic teaching is that when Jesus renamed Simon as Peter and said "on this rock I build my church", he was naming Peter as the leader of the church and that all the history of Popes have been a direct continuation and so they are the original Christian Church. Outside of Catholic tradition the first few centuries of that claim have been lost to history. There were always splinter groups and the Eastern Orthodox became a pretty substantial one, but by Martin Luther's time there had mainly just been THE Church in Western Europe for over 1000 years. Catholic did not then mean a certain kind of church. The point Luther endeavored to make was that THE Church had lost its way and needed a course correction. He did not initially intend to create a competing brand.

The Catholic Priest hosting the Bible-in-a-Year podcast I'm listening to made these same great points, so I don't know whether it's okay to just read the Bible and pray on my own, apart from the Catholic Church.

I thought Martin Luther emphasized that Faith in Jesus alone and trusting God is enough.

Listening to this Catholic Bible-in-a-Year podcast, I was surprised how well the Catholics thoroughly study and know the Bible, more so than any of the Protestant denominations I've attended where they only pick out a couple of random verses from the Bible and talk for an hour or hours on it. The Catholics really have a systematic, structured, complete teaching program of the whole Bible. I was quite impressed.

I was equally surprised when this Catholic priest podcast host took digs at Martin Luther, like how he threw out the 7 extra books that are in the Catholic Bible because he did not like them.

I was always under the impression that the Catholics were thankful to Martin Luther for the course correction.

The scholars and historians are very favorable, positive, and kind to Martin Luther, and usually portray the Catholic Church as fanatical and corrupt. The famous theologians like Jonathan Edwards and Saint Thomas Aquinas seemed to agree with as well as promote the Protestant Reformation.

The Catholic priest I listen to made an excellent point about the Eucharist, or Communion, citing Jesus' own words saying the breaking of bread and drinking of wine is literally consuming his body and blood. He made the point that this was the belief and practice for hundreds of years. I know that today Protestants interpret the Communion of bread and wine being only symbols of Jesus' body and blood, not literally his body and blood. But it was compelling how Catholics cite Jesus' own words and the hundreds of years of history of how it was passed down from Jesus himself.
 

G.B.Blackrock

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Per Axaday:

Catholic teaching is that when Jesus renamed Simon as Peter and said "on this rock I build my church", he was naming Peter as the leader of the church and that all the history of Popes have been a direct continuation and so they are the original Christian Church. Outside of Catholic tradition the first few centuries of that claim have been lost to history. There were always splinter groups and the Eastern Orthodox became a pretty substantial one, but by Martin Luther's time there had mainly just been THE Church in Western Europe for over 1000 years. Catholic did not then mean a certain kind of church. The point Luther endeavored to make was that THE Church had lost its way and needed a course correction. He did not initially intend to create a competing brand.

The Catholic Priest hosting the Bible-in-a-Year podcast I'm listening to made these same great points, so I don't know whether it's okay to just read the Bible and pray on my own, apart from the Catholic Church.

I thought Martin Luther emphasized that Faith in Jesus alone and trusting God is enough.

Listening to this Catholic Bible-in-a-Year podcast, I was surprised how well the Catholics thoroughly study and know the Bible, more so than any of the Protestant denominations I've attended where they only pick out a couple of random verses from the Bible and talk for an hour or hours on it. The Catholics really have a systematic, structured, complete teaching program of the whole Bible. I was quite impressed.

I'm going to break in right here to say that, while the "pull random verses" program may well have sway in many evangelical (not the same as Protestant) circles, the "systematic, structures, complete teaching program of the whole Bible" is by no means exclusive to Catholicism (and depending what circles one runs in, is by no means universal even among Catholics). It's perhaps safest to say that such a program represents an ideal, but several Protestant denominations use similar structures.

I was equally surprised when this Catholic priest podcast host took digs at Martin Luther, like how he threw out the 7 extra books that are in the Catholic Bible because he did not like them.

The history of what Protestants call the Apocrypha (and what Catholics prefer to call the Deuterocanonical books) is complex, and there's definitely more to "what's in and what's out" than merely "not liking" (or otherwise disagreeing with the theology contained in) certain books. I'm being a bit reductionist here, simply for the sake of not boring everyone with an even greater wall of text than what this already is, but one of the core factors is the ability (or perceived ability, to be honest) to tie a book to the Jews of the New Testament period, or in the case of the New Testament Pseudepigrapha (essentially the NT equivalent of the Apocrypha, which typically refers only to OT-era books. There's OT pseudepigrapha, too, but this is getting deep into the weeds) to the followers of Jesus or to Paul (not usually directly in the case of the former, but through a disciple of said followers. Even conservative scholars agree that even the earliest of the NT books was written decades after Jesus's death and resurrection). It should also be noted that, while the finalized version of the canon was prompted by Luther and the Protestant reformation, numerous councils attempted similar projects, often putting the same so-called apocryphal books aside, many times in the centuries before Luther.

(And, yes, there are holes here. Paul quotes one of the books now considered part of the Apocrypha, for example. Also, Luther would have liked to remove a book or two traditionally considered canonical, even by Lutherans. But that's actually a minor quibble in the grand scheme of things.)

The Catholic priest I listen to made an excellent point about the Eucharist, or Communion, citing Jesus' own words saying the breaking of bread and drinking of wine is literally consuming his body and blood. He made the point that this was the belief and practice for hundreds of years. I know that today Protestants interpret the Communion of bread and wine being only symbols of Jesus' body and blood, not literally his body and blood. But it was compelling how Catholics cite Jesus' own words and the hundreds of years of history of how it was passed down from Jesus himself.
Now my thoroughly Protestant side comes out. Yes, the literal belief was maintained for centuries, but eventually people got enough ability to think for themselves to recognize that the elements of Communion look and feel nothing like human flesh and blood. The Catholic church has explanations for this, but they come off as ridiculous to non-Catholics, and the only real justification for it is if one insists on taking Jesus's words literally (and, of course, many do) rather than figuratively. People don't have any trouble understanding Jesus to have spoken figuratively in other instances (the parables, for example), but it's apparently a major problem for some here. Ultimately, one just has to agree to disagree.
 
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diamondgirl

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If the Catholic apostles, disciples, priests, popes, etc. are all traceable back to Simon Peter and he was actually there at the first Communion/Eucharist wouldn't Peter have the best idea what Jesus actually meant, and therefore pass that teaching and practice down straight from the horse's mouth? And that's why it was interpreted like that for hundreds of years. I think that's the point the Catholic Church is making, and it's a compelling argument.

The Catholics also say that Jesus established the priesthood which the scripture seems to support, yet Protestants have thrown that out too.

What's the argument against Protestants returning to the Catholic Church that Jesus started, now that the Reformation has done its job, served its purpose? It seems like the Catholic Church is indeed the House that Jesus built.

Is it just me or do Protestant theologians seem to be more hung up on Calvinism, predestination and God's Wrath, whereas the Catholic priest I've been listening to emphasize God is Love and God is only Good.
 

CoffeeHorse

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It's been a while since I've read the Gospels, but I seem to recall the apostles being constantly confused by what Jesus meant.
 

G.B.Blackrock

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If the Catholic apostles, disciples, priests, popes, etc. are all traceable back to Simon Peter and he was actually there at the first Communion/Eucharist wouldn't Peter have the best idea what Jesus actually meant, and therefore pass that teaching and practice down straight from the horse's mouth? And that's why it was interpreted like that for hundreds of years. I think that's the point the Catholic Church is making, and it's a compelling argument.
You’ve obviously never played telephone….
 


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