Christian Evangelicals - not all are made equal

[Ungnome]

Martin Luther changed the course of human history more than any other person who ever lived. He brought about the modern world. By translating the Bible from Latin and Greek into German, Luther spread literacy to the masses. If not for this and the Protestant Reformation all of Europe would be ruled by the Catholic Church. Instead, Europe was broken into pieces. Luther ushered in individualism, capitalism, the Enlightenment, the American Revolution, Science and Technology, just to name a few. Knowledge and education was no longer exclusive to and controlled by the Catholic Church. It was made available to everyone, so that people could think for themselves and make up their own minds, rather than depending on the interpretation of the Catholic Church.

I think you are exaggerating the importance of that man. There were societal forces at work during that period which likely would have resulted in something akin to the Protestant Reformation with or without him.(same could be said for Hitler and WWII) He was simply a catalyst that sped things up a bit. As far as known real people go, I'd say we have several OTHER humans who probably have a greater claim to that than Martin Luther does. Granted, I hate the whole premise. It's a nasty chicken and egg situation at it's very core and every time someone claims such and such a person is the most influential/important person in history my hairs bristle.....

 

[Pale Rider]

Pastor alarmed after Trump-loving congregants deride Jesus' teachings as 'weak'

Evangelical Christian leader Russell Moore revealed this week that many evangelical pastors have become alarmed that their Trump-loving congregants have become so militant that they are even rejecting the teachings of Jesus Christ.In an interview with NPR, Moore said that multiple pastors had...

www.rawstory.com

 

[Ironbite4]

I was wondering how long it would take before we'd see a PragerU video in this thread.

Would the use of such a video invalidate all other arguments?

 

[G.B.Blackrock]

While I'm a HUGE fan of Zoom and other online venues, the idea that such things can totally replace the need for in-person meetings is folly. Things will change, to be sure, but there are important facets of relationship that online communications simply can't convey.

 

[G.B.Blackrock]

Would the use of such a video invalidate all other arguments?

Probably not, but it's more than a little unreliable as a source....

 

[Spin-Out]

Martin Luther changed the course ofhuman history more than any other person who ever lived. He brought about the modern world. Luther ushered in... capitalism...

you say that like it's a good thing and not literally the mind-cancer causing us to murder each other and poison our planet so some sociopathic billionaire asshole gets a few extra 0s on his offshore bank account.

 

[NovaSaber]

Martin Luther changed the course of human history more than any other person who ever lived.

I'm not sure he's in the top thousand, and very sure he's not in the top hundred.

By translating the Bible from Latin and Greek into German, Luther spread literacy to the masses.

I think Johannes Gutenberg deserves far more credit for increasing both literacy and access to the Bible.
Luther might be the second-most important person in those areas to Germany specifically, but Gutenberg changed them for all of Europe, and to a lesser degree the whole world.

Luther ushered in individualism, capitalism, the Enlightenment, the American Revolution, Science and Technology, just to name a few.

He neither founded nor promoted anything really relating to any of those.
Except I guess for "individualism" in the sense of decentralizing religion, but he's not even the person who did the most in that narrow area either.

Now that we have the internet, the need for a physical church is almost obsolete.

We now have remote worship or worship-from-home, and contactless worship following the Amazon model.

Tell that to the ghouls who kept their churches open during the height of the pandemic.

Do I even want to know what "worship following the Amazon model" means?

As far as known real people go, I'd say we have several OTHER humans who probably have a greater claim to that than Martin Luther does. Granted, I hate the whole premise. It's a nasty chicken and egg situation at it's very core and every time someone claims such and such a person is the most influential/important person in history my hairs bristle.....

I want to say it's obviously the inventor of vaccination, but it's not entirely clear which one person should get the most credit for that.

 

[diamondgirl]

Which is bad because it means all you have to do to get "forgiven" (as if anyone other than the person actually wronged has any right or ability to do that) by a church is to say you've prayed about it.

Exactly. That's exactly what's wrong with it. "Once saved, always saved" means that Christians can literally get away with murder, as far as consequences from God are concerned.
That's also why so many people convert to Christianity in prison.

Prostitutes too convert to Christianity in brothels.

One of my heroes of faith is Rahab, the prostitute, who helped Joshua's spies sent into Jericho. She was not even an Israelite woman, but she hid them from the King of Jericho, helped them escape and saved their lives. To be saved all she had to do was by faith alone hang a scarlet, crimson cloth/thread out her window and she and her family were spared, shown mercy. Rahab did not have to stop being a prostitute; the spies sent into Jericho probably went to Rahab to use her services. Rahab was saved by the simple act of faith of hanging that scarlet, crimson cloth/thread out her window symbolizing the blood of Jesus that washes away our sins. Beautiful story. Beautiful heroine of God's Faith through Jesus Christ. This is one of the teaser trailers of what's to come in the New Testament, the fulfillment of God's promise.

 

[NovaSaber]

The fact that a non-combatant would have to do anything specific to be spared illustrates the violence of the invaders, not the faith of the traitor.

Also, the author of that story had never even heard of Jesus.

 

[LordGigaIce]

Rahab was saved by the simple act of faith of hanging that scarlet, crimson cloth/thread out her window symbolizing the blood of Jesus that washes away our sins.

The Battle of Jericho, if it was a single real event and not just a story used to reflect the Israelite ascendency within the Canaanite culture group, predates Jesus' birth by 2000-1500 years. No one involved, from Rahab to Joshua to the Israelites to the Canaanites knew who Jesus was.
Hell, given the order of the events depicted in the Bible it's likely that it- or the events that inspired the story- predate the very concept of the Messiah in Jewish prophecy.

In short nothing about the Jericho story has anything to do with Jesus. And Jesus being a rabbi likely would have been the first to tell you that.

The fact that a non-combatant would have to do anything specific to be spared illustrates the violence of the invaders, not the faith of the traitor.

Welcome to warfare in the ancient world. If the Middle East is too brutal I'd advise not looking at China...

 

[LordGigaIce]

He neither founded nor promoted anything really relating to any of those.

Not only did he not found or promote any of those he kind of took a stand against some of those concepts.

The Great Peasant's Revolt in Germany was very much inspired by Luther's writing, seeking to apply his revolution against the Catholic Church to revolution against the nobility.

Problem was that a good deal of those nobles had converted to Lutheran Protestantism and Luther's continued freedom and privileged status was dependent on staying in their good graces. So when a peasant's rebellion started tossing his name around he SWIFTLY came out against it and insisted that the nobility was to be respected and obeyed in all earthly matters.

So the idea that Luther was some paragon of individuality and freedom is just laughable.

 

[Ungnome]

I want to say it's obviously the inventor of vaccination, but it's not entirely clear which one person should get the most credit for that.

As I said, chicken and egg problem. Influential changes are always caused by previous changes. James Watt didn't invent steam power, he just made a practical version. Using steam to generate movement actually dates back to AT LEAST Vitruvius. Advancements in metallurgy, physics, and machining allowed Watt to do what he did.

 

[LordGigaIce]

The Catholic Church really has lost all credibility with their priests molesting children. They have absolutely no leg to stand on.

I think that's why Baptist churches are popular.

Massive Southern Baptist Church Sexual Abuse Cover-Up and Cases

More than 50 Florida pastors on Southern Baptist Church’s list of alleged sexual abusers

A Chronicle Investigation: An Abuse of Faith

After Major Investigation, Southern Baptists Confront the Abuse Crisis They Knew Was Coming

 

[diamondgirl]

The New Testament is hidden in the Old. In the tabernacle and the temple, there are many signs of the Lord Jesus Christ and the church.

The only way to approach God was through the Tabernacle. It was exclusive and isolated by design. Man was allowed to approach, but not to enter God's presence.

A Perfect God dwelling with an imperfect people? There was still the "sin problem", the Tabernacle symbolized the presence of God with His people and showed that sinful people could live in the presence of a Holy God.

Looking Ahead: It would take time to prepare people for the Messiah, the final solution to the sin problem. The Tabernacle consisted of many signs pointing to and setting the stage for Jesus and His Church. Unlike Israel, we have the advantage of hindsight through the Scriptures.

Visual Symbolism: Not all visual symbols are clear. Not so, however, for the colors of the Tabernacle.

WHITE: Purity of God and of those who would live in His presence; prominent in the linen court curtains.

BLUE: Heavenly, the color of the sky and a reminder of the heavenly realm. The blue thread woven on the gate of the tabernacle means that when Jesus came to the world and was baptized, all our sins were transferred to Jesus. It is related to the law or commandment of God.

RED: Blood, symbol of the blood needed for atonement of the sins of mankind. The door of the tabernacle was woven with scarlet threads, referring to the sacrifices offered by the King of Kings. On the cross, Jesus Christ shed his precious blood, thereby sacrificing himself for us, and repaying our sins on our behalf. The scarlet line indicates the sacrifice of the blood of Jesus Christ.

PURPLE: Royalty, the supremacy of God and Christ; a sign of the rich and powerful. The purple color tells us that Jesus Christ is essentially the creator himself, who created the entire universe and everything in it, you and me. It also associates with royalty.

GOLD: Wealth, Power, Status.

SILVER: Redemption, 30 pieces of silver used to "buy back" the first born in Israel, (Numbers 18:15-16). Also, the cost for a ransom payment.

Visual symbolism showed the way for man to approach God, however, the Tabernacle vividly demonstrated the separation of God and man. Three areas that one had to pass in order to come into the actual presence of God. Three curtains: the gate, the tent of the Tabernacle, the veil inside the Tabernacle. Today, we see the shadow of Jesus represented in all three curtains – "The Way, the Truth, and the Light" (John 14:6).

The good news is that although we started off outside the Tabernacle, separated from God, there is a way into the outer court, a door, colorful and welcoming, beckoning one to come inside.

Entrance: To enter the Tabernacle's outer courtyard one had to pass through the first gate, a 30 feet wide curtain, 15 feet high. The realization of what was necessary to come closer to God became readily apparent to the worshipper. The price of entry or passage inside, had to be propitiated or paid for by blood. A sacrifice had to take place for admittance to be granted.

The outer court was surrounded by a heavy, finely knit white linen curtain. The color white always represented purity, and is echoed in Revelation 19:8 – "saints robed in white linen". The pure white linen was a shadow of Christ. To enter inside, you had to somehow go through it. Israel was on the outside with only one way to enter.

This "curtain", or fence, was to block the view of the Tabernacle from the rest of the camp, and to remind them of their separation because of sin. It was strung on 60 pillars of brass and hung by silver hooks. Silver representing redemption, ransom, or atonement. The pillars were made of acacia or shittim wood, sometimes referred to as "iron wood". It was stronger than walnut and insect proof, covered in bronze and set into a bronze socket – bronze representing judgement. The fence was a shadow of the Church or Christians, connected by Christ and standing in judgement.

 

[diamondgirl]

The Old Testament was revealed in the New.

The glory of the Son of god came to its peak at the moment when He died on the cross of Calvary. In Mark 15:37, 38 we read about a very interesting event that took place when Jesus died. The veil was torn in two. Human might could not have been responsible for tearing the veil. Remember, it was seventy feet wide, thirty feet high, and four inches thick! It was torn in two by the very power of the almighty God.

Before the rending of the veil, mankind had no direct access to God's presence. In a very simple, yet incredibly profound act, God tore the barrier away that had separated Him from sinful humanity for more than 1,500 years.

God was proclaiming to all those gathered there that the ministration of the priesthood had come to an end. No longer would high priest have to sacrifice, an animal on the Day of Atonement. Jesus, the true High Priest, had opened the way for mankind to come into the presence of God through His sacrifice, pouring out the atoning blood for our sin. That gap that once separated the holy righteous God from sinful depraved human race was bridged by the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Those who have entrusted themselves to Christ may have continuous access to the Holy of Holies.

The death of Jesus Christ as the sacrifice for sin was an expression of divine holiness. It is incomparably superior to that of the tabernacle and the Temple. If you want to know how God feels about sin, do not look at the veil. Do not look at the separation that God demanded in the Old Testament — three veils; an outer court, a Holy place, and a Holy of Holies. Look instead to Calvary. God hates sin so much that instead of separating Himself from it, He became one of us to overcome it. He hated it so much that He put to death His only Son so that we might know the forgiveness of sins.

Instead of one day a year in which only the high priest was permitted to enter into the Holy of Holies, all who believe in Christ have constant access to the Father through Christ. He has torn asunder that which once separated us from God through His death on the cross. From the cross Jesus spoke of divine mercy as no tabernacle furniture or veil could do. The greatest Day of Atonement has taken place through the One who sacrificed Himself for our sin — the spotless Lamb who made Himself a propitiation for our sins.

 

[G.B.Blackrock]

I don't have time for this, and I'm no longer even certain that the instigator is honestly engaging the conversation rather than just saying things to get a reaction. I'm done.

 

[diamondgirl]

Massive Southern Baptist Church Sexual Abuse Cover-Up and Cases

More than 50 Florida pastors on Southern Baptist Church’s list of alleged sexual abusers

A Chronicle Investigation: An Abuse of Faith

After Major Investigation, Southern Baptists Confront the Abuse Crisis They Knew Was Coming

The Catholic Church holds Christians to a higher standard, so with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

Alot of those who the Old Testament called good people did far worse things (e.g..David - a man after God's own heart). I heard when God's people were in Babylon, times were so tough they resorted to cannibalism. They boiled their children for food.

That's why I believe only Jesus Christ can wash away our sins.

 

[LordGigaIce]

Alot of those who the Old Testament called good people did far worse things (e.g..David - a man after God's own heart). I heard when God's people were in Babylon, times were so tough they resorted to cannibalism. They boiled their children for food.

Why are you so wrong about everything? The only mention of people resorting to eating children regarding Babylon was during the Babylonian siege of Jerusalem.

Which isn't good but like... that's pretty standard for prolonged sieges, especially in the ancient world.

Has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with people getting hungry and desperate when you surround a city and cut it off from being resupplied.

The Catholic Church holds Christians to a higher standard, so with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

My point to you is that you should heed Jesus' words of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
You can't claim the Catholic Church has lost the moral high ground because of a sex abuse scandal when your denomination is just as guilty of that.

That's why I believe only Jesus Christ can wash away our sins.

Jewish history claims to go back 5,000 years. And while I'm not naive enough to think it happened just like the Bible says, I also have archeological evidence that suggests that yeah there was an Israel that far back. My ancestors.
And for three thousand years neither they or anyone else knew who Yoshua ben Yosef was.

 

[diamondgirl]

Jewish history claims to go back 5,000 years. And while I'm not naive enough to think it happened just like the Bible says, I also have archeological evidence that suggests that yeah there was an Israel that far back. My ancestors.
And for three thousand years neither they or anyone else knew who Yoshua ben Yosef was.

I was struggling with this same question. How were people saved before Jesus?

In the case of Israel and the Jews, they were saved by faith in God. They basically had the tabernacle and the temple as the stand-ins for Jesus. Plus, they had a direct line to God. God spoke directly to them through Abraham and Moses.

Then my next question was what about all the people before then, and around the world who never got a chance to know the God of the Jews? The only answer that I've heard that I can accept is that if they did not have the opportunity to know Jesus, then they could not and did not reject him. So they too are saved by faith in God, whose presence and divinity is revealed in nature. I know this is not really a satisfying answer, so I'd have to say I really don't know. I guess it's just one of those mysteries of life.

 

[diamondgirl]

I heard the Gospel of Matthew was written directly to the Jewish people.

Do Jews read the New Testament?