Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Teufel

Active member
Citizen
Ilhan Omar retweeted an absolutely bonkers conspiracy theory about the Zionist movement and the formation of Israel. The video's insultingly stupid and historically illiterate, but almost worth it for the punchline of her explaining she took a semester and half worth of college courses, so hey, she knows what she's talking about.




This follows Omar pushing the Gaza hospital bombing lie, which she eventually offered a quasi-mea culpa and implored people to only post information from reliable sources. Like... crazy TikTok ladies, I guess?

 

CoffeeHorse

Exhausted, but still standing.
Staff member
Council of Elders
Citizen
What's sad is she really might have taken college courses on this.
 

NovaSaber

Well-known member
Citizen
More thoughts from an Israeli who - unlike Thunberg - actually works to protect the environment:

Someone who is calling for an end to the violence gets called a "Hamas supporter"...and you think this is making a point against the suggestion that people who think Israel is in the wrong commonly get accused of extremist positions they don't hold?
 

Thylacine 2000

Well-known member
Citizen
Someone who is calling for an end to the violence gets called a "Hamas supporter"...and you think this is making a point against the suggestion that people who think Israel is in the wrong commonly get accused of extremist positions they don't hold?

Isn't "All Lives Matter" similarly calling for an end to violence? Surely a person merely saying "All Lives Matter" couldn't possibly be suspected of racism. That would never happen.

As I mentioned earlier in the same post you just partially quoted - after the most horrific massacre of Jews since the Holocaust, featuring multiple gang rapes, torture, infanticide, and kidnapping, Thunberg was only and explicitly "standing with Gaza in solidarity with Palestine," in total disregard for the Israeli victims. She wouldn't even SAY Israelis. Not even in her second, "clarifying" message would she say it. They cannot be worthy of sympathy. If their lives exist, it is only within an "all". Maybe.

Her message was clueless, soulless, and hurtful. That is the story. You shouldn't be looking for a "gotcha!" in the responses from those who are literally still mopping up pieces of the dead. And if you think you have found one, you are wrong.
 
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PrimalxConvoy

NOT a New Member.
Citizen
As I mentioned earlier in the same post you just partially quoted - after the most horrific massacre of Jews since the Holocaust, featuring multiple gang rapes, torture, infanticide, and kidnapping,

Some of the claims you've made, although they've been reported, are not fully substantiated, lack evidence or perhaps need clarification?

Here is what I found. I hope the information is useful.

Rape
"...It’s true that there is limited evidence of specific cases of rape during the attack by Hamas. The Los Angeles Times, for example, removed a reference to rape from an Oct. 9 opinion piece because the reports hadn’t been substantiated.

However, some elected officials have referred to rape in their remarks about Hamas militants in Israel. Biden, for example, listed rape among the war atrocities suffered by Israelis after he’d been advised about it on a phone call with Netanyahu.

There has also been at least one news article, from the Times of Israel, reporting that two videos “have raised concerns of sexual assault against women.” One video shows a woman who has blood on her pants being taken out of a vehicle in Gaza, according to the article, and the other shows a woman in her underwear lying face down in a truck. The article did not link to the videos.

Rape is often used as a tactic of war and has a long history as such, although there are no publicly confirmed examples of sexual assault.

Update, Oct. 24: The Israeli Security Agency, commonly called Shin Bet, and the IDF released video footage showing the interrogation of some Hamas terrorists captured after the attack, the Times of Israel reported on Oct. 24. One of the videos shows a man who says that Hamas ordered fighters to “kill everyone,” including women and children. “He said they were given permission to rape the corpse of a girl,” the Times of Israel wrote. Also, the Israeli military released two instruction manuals that it said had been recovered from dead Hamas fighters. “Orders were there for how many to kill, how many to take as hostages. Orders were there to rape, all was written and ordered,” Maj. Gen. Michael Edelstein told reporters at the screening, the BBC reported.

Update, Oct. 20: A day after we published our story, Reuters reported that “Rabbi Israel Weiss, former army chief rabbi, one of the officials overseeing the identification of the dead … said many bodies showed signs of torture as well as rape.” The article also said that “military personnel overseeing the identification process didn’t present any forensic evidence in the form of pictures or medical records.”


(Source: - https://www.factcheck.org/2023/10/what-we-know-about-three-widespread-israel-hamas-war-claims/ )

Torture
"...Slain victims of the Hamas terrorist attacks have signs of abuse and torture, Reuters reports.

Forensic teams in Israel discovered bodies with their arms and feet chopped off, people and a child beheaded..."

(Source: - https://www.businessinsider.com/ham...and-abuse-says-israeli-forensics-2023-10?op=1 )

Infanticide
"...The i24 News reporter said the claim came from Israeli soldiers, but the Israel Defense Forces had not confirmed how many babies were killed or if any were beheaded. On Oct. 12, an Israel Defense Forces spokesperson told PolitiFact that the attack on Kfar Aza was "a massacre in which women, children, toddlers and elderly were brutally butchered in an ISIS way of action."

(Source: - https://www.politifact.com/article/2023/oct/20/israel-hamas-war-how-politicians-media-outlets-amp/ )

Kidnapping
"...Hamas, the group that controls Gaza and staged the surprise attack on Israel on Oct. 7, and other Palestinian groups are believed to be holding more than 200 hostages — people taken after Hamas stormed across the border in a brazen assault that also killed at least 1,400 people..."

(Source: - https://archive.md/ZlBXU via https://www.nytimes.com/article/israel-hostages-hamas-explained.html )

Greta Thunberg.
"...
On Oct. 20, 2023, Thunberg posted a message on X (formally Twitter) calling for "solidarity with Palestine and Gaza" and for "an immediate ceasefire" in the Israel-Hamas war. The message included a photo of Thunberg holding a sign reading, "STAND WITH GAZA," alongside three other activists.

Responding to Thunberg, Israel's X account responded with the below-displayed tweet, and a spokesman for the Israeli army told POLITICO: "Whoever identifies with Greta in any way in the future, in my view, is a terror supporter."..

(Source: - https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/greta-thunberg-deepfake/ )
 
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Thylacine 2000

Well-known member
Citizen
It would have been the human thing to do for Recycling Snooki to name them both.

Regarding sources for massacre details, try using Ctrl-F on the below to search for keywords like "rape," "pelvis," "torture," "pregnant," "beheaded," "burned," "brains," "organs," and "tied."





 
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NovaSaber

Well-known member
Citizen
Isn't "All Lives Matter" similarly calling for an end to violence?
Not really. As a specific slogan intentionally referencing another slogan, it's defined in relation to the other one.
Thus, it is primarily a denial of the fact that the issues disproportionately affect black people. (Or minorities in general, depending on the context.)

I really don't think that "assuming meaning from what is not said" belongs in the same category as "pointing out a recognized slogan" at all, but if your hypothesis is that there are parallels here, maybe you should rethink what those would be.
When someone mentions victims in Gaza but not in Israel, if there is any intent relating to who is more affected, that intent would be to acknowledge the fact that more people are dying and suffering in Gaza than in Israel.

Surely a person merely saying "All Lives Matter" couldn't possibly be suspected of racism. That would never happen.
It is racist, but even with that being true you still can't automatically assume that anyone who says it outright supports racist violence.
("Blue lives matter", on the other hand, basically does mean something like that.)

As I mentioned earlier in the same post you just partially quoted -
As you know, replying to every part of a post typically requires considerably more time and effort than the original post did.
But I'll do it this time.

after the most horrific massacre of Jews since the Holocaust, featuring multiple gang rapes, torture, infanticide, and kidnapping, Thunberg was only and explicitly "standing with Gaza in solidarity with Palestine," in total disregard for the Israeli victims.
Disregard for those not mentioned, or focus on those that are mentioned?

Do you think as negatively of those who mention Israeli victims but not Palestinian ones?

She wouldn't even SAY Israelis. Not even in her second, "clarifying" message would she say it.
The one where she said "We are of course against any type of discrimination, and condemn antisemitism in all forms and shapes. This is non-negotiable."
But in your view that's still bad because she didn't say the specific thing you wanted?

They cannot be worthy of sympathy. If their lives exist, it is only within an "all". Maybe.
This is utterly baseless.

Her message was clueless, soulless, and hurtful. That is the story.
I brought it up to note the reactions to her message, so aside from being an example, your comments directly on her words (or lack of words) are an "even if you were right it wouldn't make me wrong" tangent.

Also, please avoid using the word "soulless" to describe an autistic person.

You shouldn't be looking for a "gotcha!" in the responses from those who are literally still mopping up pieces of the dead.
You were the one who linked to it in a post whose subject was whether or not inaccurate accusations are being made.
And it required no specific "looking" to recognize that it was one.
That's not a "gotcha", it's not even focus on a small detail at all; that article didn't even have a purpose other than "accuse anti-war voices of supporting the enemy".

Do you not see how extreme of a double standard this is? You're saying people who support Israel's actions should be given leeway even for extremist "with us or against us" jive, while anyone who's advocating for Palestine absolutely has to very specifically mention Israeli victims to not have the worst assumed of them?
 
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Teufel

Active member
Citizen
Upon learning a flight was coming from Tel Aviv, a mob in Dagestan stormed an airport searching room to room and plane to plane waving Palestinian flags and shouting Allah Akbar as they sought out Jews.



Link

A flight from Israel to the Russian Republic of Dagestan earlier today was forced to divert from its intended destination in the capital of Makhachkala after pro-Palestinians protesters stormed the airport, seeking to attack the Israeli arrivals, according to multiple reports.


The plane landed at an alternate airport, but faced riots there as well, according to Channel 12. Passengers were instructed to remain inside the plane and riot police were called to the scene to protect them, the report says.


Footage showed a mob rampaging through an airport terminal after learning of the incoming flight.


Mainstream media reporting on it as a... protest...? That mob definitely would've protested the jive out of any Jew it found, that's for sure.

 

PrimalxConvoy

NOT a New Member.
Citizen
Mainstream media reporting on it as a... protest...? That mob definitely would've protested the jive out of any Jew it found, that's for sure.
Some Mainstream media reports have reported that the people were protesting (which is what they seem to have been doing) and included that some/all of the same people had also been searching planes for Jewish people. Although I don't agree with either the protests nor the witch-hunt, I'm not sure what your point is.




 
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Pocket

jumbled pile of person
Citizen
Some Mainstream media reports have reported that the people were protesting (which is what they seem to have been doing) and included that some/all of the same people had also been searching planes for Jewish people. Although I don't agree with either the protests nor the witch-hunt, I'm not sure what your point is.
The one Teufel posted was the Associated Press, which is... well, was... one of the last news outlets worth trusting to get their story straight. And regardless of whether or not all of the people involved were openly displaying violent intentions, one does not simply "protest" the mere existence of people of a particular ethnic group in one's country.
 

Monique

Guess whos back
Citizen
Ilhan Omar retweeted an absolutely bonkers conspiracy theory about the Zionist movement and the formation of Israel. The video's insultingly stupid and historically illiterate, but almost worth it for the punchline of her explaining she took a semester and half worth of college courses, so hey, she knows what she's talking about.



Is she thinking about the Balfour Declaration? It was WW1 era not 2 but follows the general idea of the British wanting to establishing a nation for the jewish people in the region with the hopes they would join their war and help fight against the Ottoman Empire in the area.
 

Dekafox

Fabulously Foxy Dragon
Citizen
BBC coverage also mentions the IDF claims it also caused the collapse of some Hamas underground bunkers and infrastructure.


This last paragraph from the article seems to sum up the various viewpoints nicely:

Israel sees a moral distinction between unintentional casualties in a just war and deliberate murder by Hamas. The Americans told Israel not to be blinded by rage and to respect the laws of war, which protect civilians. Palestinians believe Israel is determined to inflict another catastrophe on them.

Basically it sounds like the IDF doesn't care about anything at this point other than their targets, and any collateral is unimportant. (This was a camp in the North Gaza, the region they did tell to evacuate, so it seems they feel that's the extent of their responsibility.) The US is wagging their finger and telling them to play nice, and the civillians feel like they're getting lumped in with HAMAS whether they support them or not. There was another BBC article or comment(don't have the link handy) where it seemed to sum up fears that it's also a form of "collective punishment" against Palestinians for what HAMAS did.
 

Wheelimus

Administrator
Staff member
Council of Elders
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At least we have a deal now to get the 500 US nationals out of Gaza, 1,000 if you include their relatives.
 


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