Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Thylacine 2000

Well-known member
Citizen
Way to just...wave away my post. Means so hugging much in this topic.

No, you were describing as mere "criticism" statements and actions that those impacted by them - a group to which you don't belong - see and experience as racism. That is ever the core of this issue.

As for your Caitlin Johnstone link, it starts with a good question and ends with a dumb one. To save space for now, I'll just look at the good one.

This is the worst, stupidest, most incompetent and extreme government Israel has ever had. And I DON'T trust them to manage the response to the crisis that began because of their stupidity. Hamas' infiltration attack plan was public knowledge since at least 2015. There were warnings all year that the judicial reform unrest was leaving them distracted and exposed. I have a hard time even thinking of the appropriate response, because I'm always stuck on "The appropriate response is to PREVENT IT, you idiots!". And I'm not beyond that. I don't know if I ever will be.
 

Tuxedo Prime

Well-known member
Citizen
And I'm not beyond that. I don't know if I ever will be.
You likely won't. Which is, all things considered, a very human state to be in.

My sympathy for your rage and pain probably means little to you, but you have it nonetheless.
 

Pocket

jumbled pile of person
Citizen
So, my understanding of the situation in Israel is that it's basically this:

Israel 2023.png


Units not to scale.
 

MrBlud

Well-known member
Citizen
100% of Hamas wants as many dead Israelites as possible and doesn’t care how many innocent Palestinians have to die for them to continue killing. If they could magically only kill Israeli soldiers or Politicians, they’d *still* murder indiscriminately.

If Israeli could magically choose between *only* killing Hamas members or continue bombing every civilian in Gaza unable to escape; they’d choose the Hamas members but they have enough right-wing ***** in there it certainly wouldn’t be unanimous…
 

Anonymous X

Well-known member
Citizen
Regular reminder that the far-left, despite defining themselves as antiracists, are as racist as the far-right; they just just target their racism at different groups, and use different justifications.
 

MrBlud

Well-known member
Citizen
The fact the violence was against Jews is the only reason so many people are giving it a pass or trying to justify/deny it.

Even if a group of Native Americans left a Reservation and live-streamed killing 1,200 people in a nearby town you wouldn’t have a similar outpouring of “well, maybe they deserved it”.
 

Teufel

Active member
Citizen
Teufel why do you constantly equate any criticism of Israel as an attack on the Jewish people? Why? Why is this your hill to die upon? When you have the IDF bombing refugee camps with the cover story of "oh we thought there was a Hamas commander", cutting off all utilities to the area and causing babies to literally die in the NICU with the cover story of "we though there was a Hamas base in here" and utterly ignoring the millions of protestors who are protesting right now in Israel to call a ceasefire and stop this madness? Why? Why is this your hill to die upon?

Ironbite-because bro.....I'm tired of it.

That's not something I've ever done. And it's not something I'll ever do, not least of all because I'm not Jewish and over the years have criticized Israel on these forums over settlement construction/expansion, retaliatory home demolitions, Netanyahu not even making the slightest token effort towards a two state solution, the extremists he's brought into coalition and given powerful posts, etc. And I'd point out in that time I've gotten into civil back and forth debates on some of these issues with staunchly pro-Israel Jewish posters and never been called antisemitic for it. So I categorically reject that assertion; it's a bulljive premise. I've never done it and no one else has in all my years in P&R.
 

PrimalxConvoy

NOT a New Member.
Citizen
I would like to share a rather personal experience that happened today at the Islamic school that I teach at.
(Spoilers added later in case this is not fully on-topic)

As a bit of background, I'm the kindergarten homeroom teacher. Myself (a westerner), the other western teacher and two Japanese teachers are the only non-muslims at this school. Each class/grade has a homeroom teacher, but during the day, all teachers move around the classrooms teaching their subject (such as science, geography, English, Islamic studies, etc) so most teachers have to use each of the classrooms throughout the day. My classroom has Arabic, English (and at one time, Islamic posters), provided by me and some of the other staff (but mainly me).

This is what happened (behind spoiler tags for post length/relevance)

I removed a "Pray for Palestine" picture that the Islamic teacher put up today in my Kindergarten classroom (As I'm the homeroom teacher and I believe in responsible for the class and the pupils). It ripped while I tried to remove it so I put it in the bin. . However, I didn't remove any of the other posters that he put up around the school.

I then went upstairs and told him (while there were no pupils around), in his self-appointed office that the head teachers (including the main school manager, who is from Palestine and whose parents are currently homeless) didn't feel it was appropriate to discuss this (political) subject at the school. My Palestinian boss also felt it wasn't appropriate to discuss the current situation in Palestine with kids aged 3 - 7 years old (and possibly older). Out of respect for my boss, and professional due diligence, I've avoided this topic.

He said we should have a meeting to discuss this later and I told him there was no need, as we've been asked to avoid this subject. I said he was welcome to talk to others, but as far as I was concerned, I didn't want the poster up in the room that I was responsible for. He was really angry when I told him I put it in the bin (it was just printed on paper).

There's a bit more to it, but basically he then came down to my classroom and lost his temper and started shouting that I was against Islam and things like that, in front of his own son (who's in my Kindergarten homeroom).

I told him that I was not prepared to discuss the matter further and I then asked him to stop talking about this, as it might be upsetting my pupils and asked him to leave the classroom. When he was leaving but still talking about it, I closed the door and he then commanded me to "not close the door" on him. I then asked him to leave again.

(Later, his 5 year old son told me that "I was saying bad things to Daddy", etc, which is why I didn't want this situation to happen in a classroom).

Then, I spoke to our Palestinian boss about this incident outside the school building (and asked another teacher to look after the kindergarten pupils). I explained that I was not against Palestine, but as he and the other managers had asked us to refrain from discussing this subject (especially with the children) and as I am responsible for the Kindergarten classroom, I felt it inappropriate to have this poster up on the wall.

My boss and I then came to my classroom, where the Islamic teacher was shouting angrily, in front of my pupils, the other teachers and basically all of the kids from other classes (who all arrived together en masse). I went outside to meet and greet them and ensure the kindergarten pupils were ok, got their shoes ready, etc.

My boss then spoke to the Islamic teacher and had an immediate meeting with him to defuse the situation.

Both in his "office" and downstairs in my classroom, he kept asking me my views about this issue but I told him that it wasn't appropriate to talk about it here at this school (for me). He then insinuated that I was teaching the kids bag things, that "people like me" (I suspect he meant non-Muslims/westerners) were responsible and/or was against Islam, etc.

When he left, I apologised to the other teachers who had to witness this. One of them, herself an Islamic teacher, said they agreed with him somewhat (although I didn't have time, nor the desire to explain myself, so they weren't aware of the full story). They said that I shouldn't have removed the poster as it was his religious view and he's the main religious teacher at the school.

The thing is, I myself have put up posters around the school (including flags and greetings in the languages of an the pupils and staff, including Palestine)' but I've always checked if they were OK, with either management or the homeroom teacher responsible for that classroom. I've even put up several Islamic or Arabic posters (such as how to wash before praying, etc) and (unlike some of the other Muslim teachers at my school), I've removed faces from worksheets and the background music from educational songs, because I've been asked to (as some Muslims aren't happy with these things). I've been very careful to avoid sensitive or political issues and/or to avoid a "West is Best" image. In other instances, posters I've put up have been removed or edited (such as during exams or because it was felt not to be appropriate) and I wasn't asked about this. I wasn't angry about this.

The Islamic teacher has also previously tried to change the way the school is run to make it "more Islamic", even though the managers and some other staff (themselves strict Muslims) have stated as "not really relevant or possible at a school in Japan"), such as making the boys walk in front of the girls when going to the park, etc. I have even asked other (Muslim) teachers to take the children to the toilet as he refused because it was "against his religious beliefs". Again, the management or some other staff thought that this wasn't really helpful or relevant to running a school for kids in Japan. We've all got to muck-in, basically.

Anyway, our Palestinian boss then took him aside and had an immediate meeting with him, even though he asked the Islamic teacher to have the meeting later (he refused), so he had to calm him down.

I'm not sure what the outcome was. My boss recently only came back to school due to stress from his job (and most probably his family situation in Gaza).

Please don't think badly about Muslims in general. It's a rather sensative subject and I can tell that for some of the staff, it's rather painful. Some are rather political and I feel they have a "Muslims against the world/vice-versa" view, but most people at my school at least understand the need to be diplomatic or professional.

Here's an example of one of the posters that is around the school This one is now up right next to my classroom door)

IMG_20231114_161333.jpg


I'm not really great at dealing with these sorts of things. I've had to defuse disagreements between myself and this teacher before (see above) whilst ignoring other things (he has refused to help my pupils clean up their mess that his wife, who worked at the school, was partially responsible for, as it was seemingly "beneath him", for example). I also hope, in order to follow the views of my managers, that I did the right thing...


Also, please excuse any errors as I wrote this in a rather emotional state on my phone.
 
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Thylacine 2000

Well-known member
Citizen
I would like to share a rather personal experience that happened today at the Islamic school that I teach at. Myself (a westerner), the other western teacher and two Japanese teachers are the only non-muslims at this school. As a bit of background, I'm the kindergarten homeroom teacher. Each class/grade has such a teacher, but during the day, all teachers move around the classrooms teaching their subject (such as science, geography, English, Islamic studies, etc) so most teachers have to use each of the classrooms throughout the day. My classroom has Arabic, English (and at one time, Islamic posters), provided by me and some of the other staff (but mainly me).

This is what happened (behind spoiler tags for post length/relevance)

I removed a "Pray for Palestine" picture that the Islamic teacher put up today in my Kindergarten classroom (As I'm the homeroom teacher and I believe in responsible for the class and the pupils). It ripped while I tried to remove it so I put it in the bin. . However, I didn't remove any of the other posters that he put up around the school.

I then went upstairs and told him (while there were no pupils around), in his self-appointed office that the head teachers (including the main school manager, who is from Palestine and whose parents are currently homeless) didn't feel it was appropriate to discuss this (political) subject at the school. My Palestinian boss also felt it wasn't appropriate to discuss the current situation in Palestine with kids aged 3 - 7 years old (and possibly older). Out of respect for my boss, and professional due diligence, I've avoided this topic.

He said we should have a meeting to discuss this later and I told him there was no need, as we've been asked to avoid this subject. I said he was welcome to talk to others, but as far as I was concerned, I didn't want the poster up in the room that I was responsible for. He was really angry when I told him I put it in the bin (it was just printed on paper).

There's a bit more to it, but basically he then came down to my classroom and lost his temper and started shouting that I was against Islam and things like that, in front of his own son (who's in my Kindergarten homeroom).

I told him that I was not prepared to discuss the matter further and I then asked him to stop talking about this, as it might be upsetting my pupils and asked him to leave the classroom. When he was leaving but still talking about it, I closed the door and he then commanded me to "not close the door" on him. I then asked him to leave again.

(Later, his 5 year old son told me that "I was saying bad things to Daddy", etc, which is why I didn't want this situation to happen in a classroom).

Then, I spoke to our Palestinian boss about this incident outside the school building (and asked another teacher to look after the kindergarten pupils). I explained that I was not against Palestine, but as he and the other managers had asked us to refrain from discussing this subject (especially with the children) and as I am responsible for the Kindergarten classroom, I felt it inappropriate to have this poster up on the wall.

My boss and I then came to my classroom, where the Islamic teacher was shouting angrily, in front of my pupils, the other teachers and basically all of the kids from other classes (who all arrived together en masse). I went outside to meet and greet them and ensure the kindergarten pupils were ok, got their shoes ready, etc.

My boss then spoke to the Islamic teacher and had an immediate meeting with him to defuse the situation.

Both in his "office" and downstairs in my classroom, he kept asking me my views about this issue but I told him that it wasn't appropriate to talk about it here at this school (for me). He then insinuated that I was teaching the kids bag things, that "people like me" (I suspect he meant non-Muslims/westerners) were responsible and/or was against Islam, etc.

When he left, I apologised to the other teachers who had to witness this. One of them, herself an Islamic teacher, said they agreed with him somewhat (although I didn't have time, nor the desire to explain myself, so they weren't aware of the full story). They said that I shouldn't have removed the poster as it was his religious view and he's the main religious teacher at the school.

The thing is, I myself have put up posters around the school (including flags and greetings in the languages of an the pupils and staff, including Palestine)' but I've always checked if they were OK, with either management or the homeroom teacher responsible for that classroom. I've even put up several Islamic or Arabic posters (such as how to wash before praying, etc) and (unlike some of the other Muslim teachers at my school), I've removed faces from worksheets and the background music from educational songs, because I've been asked to (as some Muslims aren't happy with these things). I've been very careful to avoid sensitive or political issues and/or to avoid a "West is Best" image. In other instances, posters I've put up have been removed or edited (such as during exams or because it was felt not to be appropriate) and I wasn't asked about this. I wasn't angry about this.

The Islamic teacher has also previously tried to change the way the school is run to make it "more Islamic", even though the managers and some other staff (themselves strict Muslims) have stated as "not really relevant or possible at a school in Japan"), such as making the boys walk in front of the girls when going to the park, etc. I have even asked other (Muslim) teachers to take the children to the toilet as he refused because it was "against his religious beliefs". Again, the management or some other staff thought that this wasn't really helpful or relevant to running a school for kids in Japan. We've all got to muck-in, basically.

Anyway, our Palestinian boss then took him aside and had an immediate meeting with him, even though he asked the Islamic teacher to have the meeting later (he refused), so he had to calm him down.

I'm not sure what the outcome was. My boss recently only came back to school due to stress from his job (and most probably his family situation in Gaza).

Please don't think badly about Muslims in general. It's a rather sensative subject and I can tell that for some of the staff, it's rather painful. Some are rather political and I feel they have a "Muslims against the world/vice-versa" view, but most people at my school at least understand the need to be diplomatic or professional.

Here's an example of one of the posters that is around the school This one is now up right next to my classroom door)

View attachment 17707

I'm not really great at dealing with these sorts of things. I've had to defuse disagreements between myself and this teacher before (see above) whilst ignoring other things (he has refused to help my pupils clean up their mess that his wife, who worked at the school, was partially responsible for, as it was seemingly "beneath him", for example). I also hope, in order to follow the views of my managers, that I did the right thing...

Also, please excuse any errors as I wrote this in a rather emotional state on my phone.
That's a dilemma. It sounds like you followed the letter of the policies, but they were policies from a time before the current crisis got people so ramped up. It is good that your boss is on your side, though I'm sure he is under terrible stress about it. In retrospect it would have been better to discuss it with your boss first but what's done is done; I hope this is the end of it.
 

PrimalxConvoy

NOT a New Member.
Citizen
That's a dilemma. It sounds like you followed the letter of the policies, but they were policies from a time before the current crisis got people so ramped up. It is good that your boss is on your side, though I'm sure he is under terrible stress about it. In retrospect it would have been better to discuss it with your boss first but what's done is done; I hope this is the end of it.
Thanks.

Reply is behind spoilers to avoid derailing thread. Not sure if it's the best way...

Actually, the position of the management, including my boss, was made about a week or so ago. We were told not to discuss the situation in Israel/Gaza and my boss said he didn't want us talking the kids about it.

Just the other day, I had one 9 year old tell me something like "Jews are dumb", so I had to pause my lesson and say "all people are equal".

Today, some of the kids kept pointing to the ("Pray for Palestine") poster in their classroom and asking me what I thought about it. I told them today's lesson was about English and also the subject of volcanos, in the current textbook unit.

The need thing about the school is that some of the Muslim parents, teachers or staff will have brutal conversations or arguments with each other. I've heard about/witnessed a bus driver tell the deputy head teacher to basically "go f**k himself" (in their own native tongue) in front of parents, kids and teachers. Then, that teacher demanded that we all had to sign a letter calling for the bus driver's dismissal and that if we didn't, he would tell the parents what a bad place this school was/is. He told the Palestinian boss that he was basically "weak" and to man-up to the boss (while our boss was on the phone, trying to find out if his parents were safe or not in North Gaza City at the time).

The previous Islamic teacher (who still works at a local mosque) beat some of the kids at the school (sometimes with a stick) and some parents have written really abusive messages to the teachers (ironically the two Islamic teachers I mentioned above) and the teachers have arguably been just as rude. The teacher who put up the posters once demanded that the parents of a "naughty" boy come into his classroom and publicly apologise to him, in front of the class for their lack of care/respect to him...


EDIT - Below is an (edited) screenshot of a conversation I had with my boss. He referred to a previous altercation between a two members of staff who argued in front of parents, staff and pupils.

Message.png

The other manager (who originally asked us not to discuss the Palestine/Israel issue also responded and suggested that the final manager could be used if a meeting was needed (as they too asked for this topic to not be discussed at a meeting).

Manager Reply.png

(Names, profile pictures and pronouns removed for privacy/security reasons)

Edit - 16/11/23

I'm sorry if I've kind of derailed this thread but things can get crazy at this school, between anyone it seems. I spoke to my best friend about this (a French jew!) and he gave some good advice and my dad (none of the above) told me to stick to the facts (what managers have said).
 
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Pocket

jumbled pile of person
Citizen
Regular reminder that the far-left, despite defining themselves as antiracists, are as racist as the far-right; they just just target their racism at different groups, and use different justifications.
I would object to your assertion that all far-left folks are antisemitic, but I admit I've been out of touch with the discourse in that space ever since Tumblr imploded, so maybe you know something I don't.

I will say that it doesn't surprise me to learn they'd have trouble wrapping their heads around the idea that both sides of this conflict, or any other conflict, could possibly both be in the wrong. The one thing activists have drummed into them the hardest is that there's no uglier phrase than "both sides". Nor are they mentally equipped to understand that Israelis as a whole, and Palestinians as a whole, do not constitute either of the two sides, but merely those caught in the crossfire. Even as they meme about the terrible American education system and its failure to teach critical thinking, they gladly eat up whatever propaganda is spoonfed to them, reject any worldview too long to fit on a bumper sticker or protest sign, and never recognize the irony. These are the sort of people who rejected the Political Compass not for being an oversimplification of politics, but for being more complex than the oversimplification they believe in. The people who fled Tumblr for Twitter, a site that anyone with a functioning brain would recognize as being an inherently even worse place for political discourse due to the character limit, and felt right at home.

We deserve a better class of angry anticapitalist antifascist activists. But then, we also deserve to not need them in the first place and look how that turned out.
 

PrimalxConvoy

NOT a New Member.
Citizen
Below is a follow-up to my previous posts about working at an international Islamic school in Japan. I've put it behind spoiler tags as due diligence. Please excuse any "swypos".

An 8 year old boy described the scribble he had doodled as "Palestine exploding" today. Another 10 year old boy said he didn't want to go to McDonald's because "it supports Israel".

This week, one of the teachers here (the one who shared an anti-semetic picture to me while I was teaching her class pupils) taught my kindergarten kids about Palestine in an art and an Islamic lesson. Some kids have been wearing Palestine flags and waving them in classes. This is after our boss (who again, is a Muslim himself from Palestine, with parents now homeless and in grave danger) has informally asked us to refrain discussing this issue with the kids or exposing them to it.

My Malaysian colleague understood my position (see my post above) and has dissuaded her pupils from discussing it during lessons and encouraged to keep such discourse at home/with parents. She even acknowledged that the behaviour of some teachers ran contrary to our Palestinian boss's wishes. She stated that "a colleague that she wouldn't mention" recently told some of the pupils why our boss took time off (probably due to stress about his family and friends, etc in Palestine, etc), even though it was private info (which our boss possibly asked not to be shared, but shouldn't anyway, even if he didn't). Apparently, our boss wasn't happy.

I absolutely adore her and my Palestinian boss. They're both such selfless, kind people. They would happily give you the shirts off of their backs.

I'm not sure why I'm sharing this here. Partly out of frustration. Partly because I'm hurt by the accusations and deformation of character mentioned in my post/s above, but also to show that even amongst Muslims, each from different countries, there are practical and cultural reasons why even their opinions or views differ.

Like others have said, no one deserves the death and destruction suffered by people in both Israel and Palestine. Also, it's worth taking a step back and stop putting people around the world in easy boxes and judging them. If right-wing pundits can understand that the Bible is against this, if Muslims around the world can see it's not just a zero-sum game and if my Jewish friend can understand and empathise the complexity of it all, then I'm not going to give into hatred.

I believe that Hamas were wrong to attack Israel and I also believe Israel was wrong to do every they're doing now. Very wrong. I believe it's possible to pray for the people of Palestine on one hand and pray for those in Israel on the other. I believe that many innocent, beautiful people have lost their lives, their homes and everything else due to the political machinations of corrupt and hateful people using each other to meet their own twisted and evil goals.

If there's a God (which I believe there is), I hope they bring their full judgement against those people and give them what they truly deserve. I also hope that they bring peace and healing to those caught up in this and a swift end to the whole sorry episode.

I really haven't done anything to help anyone involved in this. I want to donate some money to the innocent people on both sides of this that have suffered. I want to help my boss (but I don't know how) and I keep crying whenever I see people (that also look like people I care about) dead or in pain. The children especially, as they remind me of the adorable little monsters that I teach and care for each day.

I'm sorry if I've made this about me. I'm safe, have (for the moment being) a job and enough food etc to eat. I just wanted to share how I've witnessed or been affected by this, even in this tiny, insignificant way. I also wanted to share the love and respect some of my Muslim colleagues have shown during this difficult time, but also some of the ways others (perhaps for noble reasons) haven't listened to or respected their fellow Muslim colleagues' requests to not mention it to the kids and/or with each other[ at our school.
 
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