It's always easy to make a point sound good when all the illustrative counterexamples are strawmen.
Reimagining Quintessons
- Thread starter KingSwoop
- Start date
Here's an interesting question...
Is Quintessa the Bayverse version of Quintus Prime or merely one of his Quintesson creations masquerading as him?
I've always liked the idea of Primus as the creator of the Cybertonian race, with the Quintessons being invaders / exploiters. Basically, they are a technologically advanced, biomechanical race that stumbles upon this metal world that seems to periodically "spit out" robotic life forms. The Quints conquer Cybertron and enslave the population. Not satisfied with the rate at which new Transformers emerge, they explore down into the planet to see how the process works. They find the unconcious Primus's spark chamber (or what have you) and build Vector Sigma to tap into that energy to force the creation of new sparks that they can implant in factory-built bodies. This also allows the Quintessons to custom design and mass produce specific Transformers types. This situation goes on for a long time, long enough that almost all of the Cybertronians old enough to remember a time before the Quintessons have been exterminated, and the younger population belieiving the lie that the Quints were the actual original creators of their race. Transformers are spread as products throughout the galaxy. The Quintesson Empire eventually begins to wane. The Transformers eventually rise up and kick the Quintessons off-world, and between the loss of their slave factory and the already failing state of their empire, the Quintessons become a pretty minor power in the galaxy. Transformers on various other planets likewise shake off the Quintessons and develop their own cultures (Junkions, etc) with little to no memory of Cybertron.
Meanwhile, Cybertron has it's own problems, and over time, memory of the Quintessons fades, too.
Meanwhile, Cybertron has it's own problems, and over time, memory of the Quintessons fades, too.
That is basically what happens in a number of official continuities, such as the 3H expanded Beast Wars universe, Dreamwave G1, JG1, Aligned, and the WCFT Netflix cartoon.
I've been meaning to go back and watch the Netflix cartoon. I even HAVE Netflix and I never have gotten around to watching it.
Well, it's more just vaguely alluded to in that version rather than seen or experienced.
Cartoon? How dare you. It is an anime.
Basically one interesting thing happens with the Quintesson character in Earthrise, and that's about it.
I remember so much media from the pandemic/quarantine years with trauma-bonding fondness, but even I can't muster any substantial affection for the plodding junkyard of potentially-interesting concepts that was this trilogy. And this was one I actually watched, as opposed to the Prime Wars one where I tapped out right after the sheer unintended hilarity that was Combiner Wars.
Now this IS interesting. I'd love to hear some headcanon-ing about her, one of the few interesting/bright spots of that mess. Alt universe Quintus? Quintus worshiper/Mistress of Flame type intermediary? Custodian of their planetary creation, operating on his behalf or by herself? A new form of Quintesson?
Basically one interesting thing happens with the Quintesson character in Earthrise, and that's about it.
I remember so much media from the pandemic/quarantine years with trauma-bonding fondness, but even I can't muster any substantial affection for the plodding junkyard of potentially-interesting concepts that was this trilogy. And this was one I actually watched, as opposed to the Prime Wars one where I tapped out right after the sheer unintended hilarity that was Combiner Wars.
Now this IS interesting. I'd love to hear some headcanon-ing about her, one of the few interesting/bright spots of that mess. Alt universe Quintus? Quintus worshiper/Mistress of Flame type intermediary? Custodian of their planetary creation, operating on his behalf or by herself? A new form of Quintesson?
I think Star Trek DS9 does a good job of explaining what I'm talking about. The Bajorans think of the wormhole aliens as gods and worship them. Starfleet knows they're wormhole aliens and know they've interacted with the Bajoran society in the past; but they're not gods.
Similarly the founders might genetically engineer their servants, but they're not gods anymore than Dr. Frankenstein is, or Bev Crusher for getting pregnant.
Primus and Unicrons are cosmic entities. They may also have been literal gods, whatever that means. But they are part of the world and we, the audience, are aware of it.
What's the difference between a religious Bajoran and a Bajoran studying the history of their planet's interaction with the wormhole aliens? On your view, maybe not much; but I think the big difference is that the historian is talking about fact, while the religious Bajoran is taking a lot on faith.
I am okay with Transformers talking about facts in my transformers fiction. But I would be frustrated if we get into "the power of belief"; maybe you'd prefer to focus on that. I'm not judging.
... that said, I suspect the existence of alien life would be a pretty significant fact about the world for Earth religions to explain. Did Yahweh create the transformers? No. If anything, he created Primus and Unicron (although the Bible does kind of suggest that there are other Gods that one could have before Yahweh, but that you shouldn't, so maybe Primus and Unicron are both forbidden gods, which would make the Transformers descended from a forbidden god?). But that's a REALLY WEIRD conversation for two characters to have in my children's cartoon.
By the same token, I don't want Thundercracker hating Christmas because it celebrates a god other than Primus. That's a WEIRD premise for an episode.
Sure. Megatron has been written inconsistently across media.
All I'm saying is that if we reimagine Quintessons to have this overt "You serve me" philosophy, then we may have to alter our Megatron's philosophy to specifically avoid it. In the cartoon, Megatron was gone by the time the Quintessons showed up, and Galvatron's... philosophy?... is a lot different.
Hindsight is 20/20, so hyping up Megatron concerned with protecting his people and seeing humans as insignificant, only to come across to see them as threats or pawns later on, can be character development. But Megatron should never want to step on humans out of indifference or spite; whether overtly or not, Megatron is keenly aware his people used to be slaves by an invading power, and he doesn't want to be that.
But Megatron is a Decepticon. IDW has loved to paint the A/D divide as a result of systematic oppression by the autobots, making them overtly the bad guys (again, why doesn't Optimus Prime just surrender to Megatron once he's in charge? Oh no, Megatron has killed a few too many politicians, let's fight a war without end over it. Boo frickin hoo.). However, I like to see the A/D divide as the autobots being isolationists, and the decepticons being hawks; Quintessons DID invade and DID enslave, so the Decepticons rightfully want to protect their planet and maybe rescue their countrymen. But autobots, primarily worker robots who never left cybertron, might want to focus on building their society and (in hindsight rightfully?) seeing the quintessons as no longer a threat? This grounds the ideological division of A/D in terms of their social roles; civilian vs military, rather than in boring "power corrupts" vs "oppressed rebellion" of IDW.
Decepticons are the bad guys. But IDW would have you believe they were the good guys and the autobots were the bad guys... and jive happened... and then the exact same people had their roles reversed. Boo.
I prefer my Megatron to want to seize power because he thinks it's good for Cybertron. And maybe because he's a little full of himself. He's an understandable villain, rather than a genuine hero for the oppressed that... uh... yadda yadda'd into being evil.
All kidding aside and giving this some real thought, Revenge of the Fallen previously established that there were only Seven Primes in the Bayverse sequel continuity instead of Thirteen, and that all of them minus The Fallen killed themselves to entomb the Matrix on Earth. So if Quintus does exist in the Bayverse, he was likely one of those six dead Primes, meaning Quintessa couldn't be the Bayverse version of Quintus but something else entirely.
Her calling herself the "Prime of Life" is likewise questionable considering that the more noble and trustworthy Guardian Knights referred to her as "the Great Deceiver", meaning it's difficult to trust the veracity of just about anything she ever said in TLK if it wasn't backed by supporting evidence from her actions (namely, pretty much the only thing that could be considered verifiably true about her in the movie was that she, for some reason, wanted to kill Unicron).
What this leaves us with is her being just a great big enigma that the filmmakers probably didn't give much thought to, unfortunately.
Unless "Bayverse version of Quintus" stops at "life-creating/manipulating subdeity" or something; i.e., not a Prime specifically. Her being a deceiver can manifest in many different ways.
(I'm more trying to get a handle on the character and concept for use elsewhere, and a bit less trying to wring more sense of that writer's room fever dream.)
(I'm more trying to get a handle on the character and concept for use elsewhere, and a bit less trying to wring more sense of that writer's room fever dream.)
Hold up.
You're talking about fundamentally re-writing Megatron's entire character to fit your fanfiction of Quintessons.
Sorry, no.
You clearly are. And you seem desperate to make this a wider debate about religion.
Let me make something crystal clear to you. I- someone who considers themselves a person of faith- do not care one way or another about your views on religion, be they positive or negative. Religion- or even the rejection of it- is a deeply personal matter and what you believe or don't believe is none of my concern or business. When I say "I don't care" I mean it in the most friendly way possible, but it is still an absolute statement.
So whatever desires for a deeper discussion about faith you want to have, find someone else because I am uninterested in having it with you.
My only point is that Primus and Unicron are consistently depicted as the "G-d" and "Satan" of the predominant Cybertronian religion.
Going on a whole thing about how you dislike religion and want it nowhere near Transformers but also going on about how you want Primus and Unicron involved is confused at best at downright inane at worst.
I don't give a flying flip if Y-hweh created Primus or Cybertron within the confines of the story. I don't watch Transformers to pontificate on my faith's relationship with fictional alien robots.
I'm simply saying that Primus is always coded in religious language and themes and Unicron almost always is.
I get the sense you're going to have the same conversation over and over, just with some words switched out like Mad Libs.
On another note, to those who are sure to know more about this-- how do Quintessons figure into Aligned and all that? Mainly the shows, not the books. Very hazy on whether they get mentions in Prime and RID2015.
This is basically it, that's the thread. Megatron's characterization, the roles of Primus and Unicron, etc. I mean, it IS their personal canon, fair enough, and the intent doesn't seem to be an open discussion or debate, also fair, and that's why I'm just... staying out of that bit of the thread.
On another note, to those who are sure to know more about this-- how do Quintessons figure into Aligned and all that? Mainly the shows, not the books. Very hazy on whether they get mentions in Prime and RID2015.
I'm just flummoxed. If they want to go off on their personal canon and not engage with anyone else well... fan fiction sites exist. If he just wants to pontificate on go on his rants... all the power to him I guess.
They don't come up in Prime at all. I tapped out of RiD after season one, so I can't say one way or another if they show up after that.
Never seen nor mentioned in any of the Aligned cartoons or video games. They were only ever mentioned or featured in the novels and the Covenant book.
Quintus Prime, on the other hand, made a few cameo appearance in Prime, RID 2015, and Portal, but only in cases whenever the Thirteen were shown onscreen.
I don't think that's fair; his quote is "Peace through tyranny" not "Let's be colonizers, brah!"
His original quote in his Bob Budiansky-written Marvel profile is "Everything is fodder."
Yeah, but wouldn't it have been weird if we never saw any of the former, after mentioning that the Bajorans see them as their gods?
Or if you're saying that DS9 (where the leader of the Bajoran religion was a recurring character) meets what you mean by "not having religion", I have no idea where you ever got the impression that anyone was suggesting anything that would make Transformers stop meeting it.
Primus and Unicron's creator is named The One and is honestly considerably less similar to Yahweh than Primus is.
Since The One is much more of a deistic god than a theistic one.
Actually, remember that one AVP answer where the Greek gods of Olympos (and Hades) were the Thirteen?
That makes Primus a Rung higher than Zeus.
Didn't an answer from Hasbro say that there was a full Thirteen in the Bayverse, which the Seven Primes were half of and the other six just didn't have Prime in their name (or die in the same place)?
And technically the Bayverse is also part of the multiverse that had the multiversal singularity version of the Thirteen (that's why Hasbro said there were six more in the first place), and Quintus Prime wasn't on the full list for that version that we got from AVP.
So it's possible she is the only "Quintus Prime" of a universe where that was never a real Prime.
Quintus is such a weird character and concept.
Clearly the people behind Aligned wanted to tie the Quintessons in with Cybertron while also doing their own take on "Primus is the creator god" story, and Quintus being one of the Thirteen did that and made everything seem like it was part of the same tightly woven mythology.
But it's just messy narratively.
So Quintus is one of Thirteen, and one of the progenitors of Cybertronian civilization but then he's also the creator of the Quintessons, his own little side project. Who then conquer the Cybertronians and sometimes (depending on continuity) lie about creating the Cybertronians- the much older race- except for the one continuity where they actually did do that.
Meanwhile the Quintessons are always depicted as evil or at the very least amoral, but Quintus himself is usually depicted as benevolent. Which makes a certain bit of sense, I get the feeling they didn't want too many evil dudes in the 13 after Liege Maximo and (ugh) Megatronus.
But it is odd thematically
Even then, ok. EarthSpark established Quintus as definitively a good guy so that's his character except... Quintessa.
Who not only claims to be the creator of Cybertronians but also claims to be the Prime of Life. Which is a very fitting description of Quintus Prime.
Now Sabrblade is right, the more noble Knight character calls her the great deceiver so she's likely lying or telling half truths about parts or all of this but...
the title "Prime of Life" is so specific to Quintus Prime's whole deal I can't help but think she's either the Bayverse version of Quintus or one of Quintus' creations masquerading as him.
Clearly the people behind Aligned wanted to tie the Quintessons in with Cybertron while also doing their own take on "Primus is the creator god" story, and Quintus being one of the Thirteen did that and made everything seem like it was part of the same tightly woven mythology.
But it's just messy narratively.
So Quintus is one of Thirteen, and one of the progenitors of Cybertronian civilization but then he's also the creator of the Quintessons, his own little side project. Who then conquer the Cybertronians and sometimes (depending on continuity) lie about creating the Cybertronians- the much older race- except for the one continuity where they actually did do that.
Meanwhile the Quintessons are always depicted as evil or at the very least amoral, but Quintus himself is usually depicted as benevolent. Which makes a certain bit of sense, I get the feeling they didn't want too many evil dudes in the 13 after Liege Maximo and (ugh) Megatronus.
But it is odd thematically
Even then, ok. EarthSpark established Quintus as definitively a good guy so that's his character except... Quintessa.
Who not only claims to be the creator of Cybertronians but also claims to be the Prime of Life. Which is a very fitting description of Quintus Prime.
Now Sabrblade is right, the more noble Knight character calls her the great deceiver so she's likely lying or telling half truths about parts or all of this but...
the title "Prime of Life" is so specific to Quintus Prime's whole deal I can't help but think she's either the Bayverse version of Quintus or one of Quintus' creations masquerading as him.