Sonic The Hedgehog
- Thread starter Paladin
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Probably should have waited for the second part, given how short the whole thing is looking to be.
There is another interesting thing that is very rarely mentioned despite actually being acknowledged in-game. Amy's stunt on Prison Island is not the first time she's tried to rescue Sonic. Tails knows it's not the first time. Unless that first time happened between Adventure games, her heroics do predate SA1. That does make the heroes' dismissal of her really egregious. But it does line up with Eggman taking her seriously.
I wonder if Amy's first attempt(s) to rescue Sonic failed while Prison Island succeeded. Another wrinkle is that after Prison Island, Tails is actually more accepting of her. In the cutscene and it's accompanying story scene after Knuckles defeats King Boom Boo, Tails outright says "We did it! Let's go Amy!" when they're planning to get on Robotnik's space shuttle. I wonder if after breaking Sonic out, Tails was okay with Amy but had no idea of how to work her into the plan. At this point, I don't think Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles truly understand what she's capable of and Sonic and Knuckles are definitely the types who are willing to charge in without waiting.
While another thought occurred to me about Amy, I'm watching AoStH and just had to stop and comment. There's an episode where Sonic & Tails get aboard Robotnik's ship to stop his plan to get something destructive from outer space, dock on a space station abandoned by the government, and have to fight a giant purple alien to escape. For as much as AoStH tends to be different from canon, there's a lot of stuff that's shockingly similar. I haven't been keeping a list but I've already seen Sonic deal with a robotic copy of himself and a stuffed toy copy of Tails.
I didn't hate it...
But it did benefit from time. The franchise was still figuring out its identity, with the games not giving us any dialog as a blueprint. AoStH got it right, but we needed to see the franchise try other directions to realize just how right it was.
But it did benefit from time. The franchise was still figuring out its identity, with the games not giving us any dialog as a blueprint. AoStH got it right, but we needed to see the franchise try other directions to realize just how right it was.
I didn't hate it either.
In fact, way back in '94, I watched it more than SatAM and preferred it, since, of the two shows, AoStH was the easier one for my toddler brain to understand.
Had I been a bigger kid at the time, the opposite would have most likely been the case. But by the time I reached big kid ages, SatAM was no longer airing anymore.
Likewise in not hating it, though I tended to miss SatAM due to watching Power Rangers instead or the station airing it preempting the timeslot with something else. While people may have enjoyed SatAM more AoStH due to personal preference, I think there might have been some "Sonic was never good" level thought processes skewing things on top of the general assumption that "more serious" is automatically better.
Tails just modified a vehicle to be a mech. And it was in one of the few episodes so far that mentions his birth name, Miles. In fact, while I'm not sure I'd call it an arc in the traditional sense, there has been a continued side focus of showing he's mechanically gifted. Also, despite how often he gets captured, AoStH ties with Sonic Boom as the series I had the least "Tails, you can fly..." while watching it.
Tails just modified a vehicle to be a mech. And it was in one of the few episodes so far that mentions his birth name, Miles. In fact, while I'm not sure I'd call it an arc in the traditional sense, there has been a continued side focus of showing he's mechanically gifted. Also, despite how often he gets captured, AoStH ties with Sonic Boom as the series I had the least "Tails, you can fly..." while watching it.
SatAM isn't bad. It suffers from how forced the hype got, but you have to remember the context. The hype was deliberately forced, because there was absolutely no way to watch the show except to bully someone into releasing it on DVD, and we were in this weird situation where for some reason they would release any show but that one.
You think what we got was similar, you should see the way things looked in the pilot:
Yeah, I always thought it seemed the more faithful of the two.
I did not get the hate at the time, but boy, did I ever learn.
I never hated it either, though as an adult I'm not overly fond of how... looney tunes... it gets at times. And even then its not a dislike, just that it feels like the actual Looney Tunes did a lot of it better. That aside, I've said many times how much I love Long John Baldry's Robotnik and how it is EXACTLY the level of eccentricity we see from the modern versions of Eggman. As mentioned, Tails here is allowed to really shine; he's not just 'the kid' to be protected, and even if he's occasionally the metaphorical damsel in distress he can still solve his own problems and isn't always helpless. There is a lot that this series does well and eventually proven as 'right' that even if I'm not fond of one element of it; I still enjoy pretty much everything else about it.
Oh no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm used to people saying AoStH is bad and I don't think that was just promoting SatAM. There was a tangible feeling that people regarded the goofier one being not good or even "lazy" instead of simply a different style. It actually sorta reminds me of how the fighting game community used to regard the live action Street Fighter movie compared to now.
I did watch the unaired pilot of AoStH as part of this marathon, so I know that's where the animation for the end credits comes from. Similar to how a lot of the animation from Sonic X's intro comes from one of its two unaired pilots. I also know that's where the bosses from Dr Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine come from.
I was initially planning not to watch AoStH for the marathon since I was worried I couldn't come back to it. I should have understood some elements of my own tastes and humor that it wouldn't be a problem. However, while there's Looney Tunes elements (at times Sonic is distinctly Bugs Bunny) that don't always work, there's something else it has elements of that I can't place my finger on.
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It also doesn't help that, back when people used to say that AoStH was bad, it was back when the Nostalgia Critic was still new and popular, with videos like his tearing into AoStH and praising SatAM like it was some well established fact that the former just completely sucked with no redeeming qualities at all.
There's something I've been noticing across this marathon that I want to discuss. It's the fact that...I don't think Sega considers the anthropomorphic characters to be animals. It actually started with the first TailsTube on how they specifically said "folks like us" and "people like this" rather than saying animals and humans. A few different cartoons have had attempted matchups between humans and anthros, though admittedly half have been Robotnik "marry royal for power" schemes. If it's true that they aren't viewed as animals, it would help explain why they didn't realize Elise from 06 would be problematic. Sonic almost had a human girlfriend in early development of the first game but someone from Sega of America advised against it. And style does a lot. The weird human designs of AoStH don't feel out of place next to anthro characters. This popped back in my head seeing Breezie and Robotnik Jr. fall in love since, despite both being robots, one is a femme fatale designed to seduce Sonic and the other is designed to be Robotnik's son.
I can think of a few instances in both cartoons where in they refer to themselves as a collective with "humans" and "mankind".
As far as being referred to as "humans"...I think what we have here is a language issue that doesn't really translate. I can't be sure, but the word they're using in Japanese is probably "ningen". Which CAN mean "human", but it can also mean "mortal" or "something that is human-like" (such as a Japanese cryptid that has the same name), as far as I understand it. We don't really have a equivalent in English, and "people" is probably the closest we can get that still sounds alright in English. Anthropomorphic would probably be more accurate...but it doesn't really roll off the tongue.
And this direction from Sega Japan probably informs how the American branch can refer to them. In contracts and story guides and such. There's probably a line in all their story notes saying something like: "Sonic and his friends are NOT to be described as 'animals', they are 'beings' or 'people'". In order to separate them from some of the ACTUAL animals, with animal-like minds, like Sonic's dog Muttski.
www.urbandictionary.com
japanese.stackexchange.com
Or, to put it more succinctly...it's a pun. Or at least wordplay. 9 times out of 10, if there's something weird in Japanese stuff, it's for the sake of a pun that doesn't really translate well into English.
As for the 06 romance, I think it's kind of a Roger Rabbit mentality. The people in charge don't really see a rabbit and a woman together...they see two cartoon characters together.
Same thing for Tex Avery's Wolf and Red.
Kind of goes all the way back to Betty Boop and her dog-person boyfriend Bimbo. (Don't laugh).
"Classic" cartoons like what inspired Sonic just...did that kind of thing from time to time.
Really, the main reason that 06's romance doesn't really work is probably because the graphics are too "realistic" or "anime". If everyone was more designed like a cartoon character, there'd probably less people thinking it's gross. Of course, Sally Acorn and Amy kind of conditioned westerners about what they expect in a "love interest" for Sonic.
That MIGHT be the element you're seeing in AoStH, too. Classic black and white squash and stretch cartoons. Or maybe even a little bit of MUCH more family-friendly Ren and Stimpy like design choices.
And this direction from Sega Japan probably informs how the American branch can refer to them. In contracts and story guides and such. There's probably a line in all their story notes saying something like: "Sonic and his friends are NOT to be described as 'animals', they are 'beings' or 'people'". In order to separate them from some of the ACTUAL animals, with animal-like minds, like Sonic's dog Muttski.
Urban Dictionary: Ningen
1: Meaning "Human" in Japanese. 2: A derogatory name or statement to someone. 3: A mythical sea monster.
www.urbandictionary.com
The "cultural" meaning of 人間 (ningen)?
So, I have a general question about the word 人間 (ningen), and it's not about grammar. The most common translation for this word is "human", but I have been noticing that its usage is somewhat diffe...
japanese.stackexchange.com
Or, to put it more succinctly...it's a pun. Or at least wordplay. 9 times out of 10, if there's something weird in Japanese stuff, it's for the sake of a pun that doesn't really translate well into English.
As for the 06 romance, I think it's kind of a Roger Rabbit mentality. The people in charge don't really see a rabbit and a woman together...they see two cartoon characters together.
Same thing for Tex Avery's Wolf and Red.
Kind of goes all the way back to Betty Boop and her dog-person boyfriend Bimbo. (Don't laugh).
"Classic" cartoons like what inspired Sonic just...did that kind of thing from time to time.
Really, the main reason that 06's romance doesn't really work is probably because the graphics are too "realistic" or "anime". If everyone was more designed like a cartoon character, there'd probably less people thinking it's gross. Of course, Sally Acorn and Amy kind of conditioned westerners about what they expect in a "love interest" for Sonic.
That MIGHT be the element you're seeing in AoStH, too. Classic black and white squash and stretch cartoons. Or maybe even a little bit of MUCH more family-friendly Ren and Stimpy like design choices.
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I believe it has been mentioned that Sonic's pre Sonic 1 human girlfriend was partially inspired by that Roger Rabbit mentality. As far as Elise, an anime design might have worked since Sonic didn't look out of place in Sonic X. But they went for a realistic design and in a game that also had Amy in it that was 15 years into an existing franchise.
Returning to the Amy discussion, there's a lot of things that were there the whole time with her but don't get focused on. One is her comment at the end of her story in Sonic Adventure: "Just watch me. I'll make that Sonic respect me!" It's interesting to think about the actual trajectory.
-Sonic Adventure 2. Amy rescues Sonic. While it's not a thing Sonic would hold over her, she repaid the debt of having to be rescued. Her "will you marry me" is met with a No.
-Sonic Heroes. Since a rescue didn't work, Amy challenges Sonic to an anime rival battle. The answer is still No to marriage.
-Sonic Battle. She mistakenly assumes that taking care of Emerl is Sonic presenting a secret test of character to see if she'll be a good mother. In her zeal, she takes up boxercise. While a lot of the focus the game gives is due to her obsession with using boxercise to lose weight, she takes it up in the first place to protect Emerl. Sonic & Tails explicitly comment that she's getting stronger. I think it's worth noting that the people who are known to have martial arts training are Knuckles (one of the strongest characters in the setting) and Espio (a literal ninja).
-Sometime after (unsure on the first game where it happened) Amy started asking Sonic out instead of immediately jumping to marriage. It marks a shift, especially since while Sonic will immediately say no to marriage (makes sense considering they aren't adults) he'll often get flustered instead of turning her down when dating gets mentioned.
-Sonic '06. Elise gets kidnapped a billion time but one of the times she gets kidnapped it's Amy who does the rescue. The two of them have a talk and discuss love, not knowing they're both talking about Sonic. Later in the game, Amy doesn't flip out when Elise gives Sonic the kiss of life. She's able to be mature if someone else catches Sonic's eye. Then 06 decides to 06 and erase itself from the timeline.
-Sonic Unleashed. Over the course of the game, there comes a point where Amy asks Sonic if he'll go out with her after he saves the world. The answer has no affect on the game...
-Sonic and the Black Knight. Sonic starts the game with two chili dogs, which doesn't sound like that big of deal. At the end, Amy's chiding him because she thinks he's making excuses instead of truthfully recounting he got sucked into a storybook. Excuses for missing their date. She had finally gotten him to agree to a date...and she feels like he stood her up.