I thought it was said somewhere that this film was in a separate universe from not only the MCU, but also all the other Spidey-verses.
Sony's Spider-Man Universe
- Thread starter SHIELD Agent 47
- Start date
Whether it was said or not, it has to be. Peter's a fetus in 2003 in this movie. Even Holland's Parker is too old for that.
They're still making that?
Only way I'll watch it is if he's hunting Sony execs in the style of the Most Dangerous Game.
Oh... alrighty, then.
Madame Web's box office returns are off to a worse start than Morbius.
Can't say I'm surprised. Sony should just stop these contractually-obligated abominations. This failure will be blamed on "superhero fatigue", because Sony execs just can't admit they made a trash film that nobody asked for, and even fewer people wanted to see.
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I mean you aren't wrong. At least Kraven and Morbius have a bit of clout to their name, but no one gives a damn about a no name character like Madame Web or El Muerto. Web has got at least some of the fanbase of the old 90's series to actually make her known a little bit, but it's not like she was ever that big in the comics either. Heck her title is taken over by the second Spider-Woman these days.
El Muerto though..... who even knows who he was before they announced the movie? Honestly feels like Sony flushing money down the toilet.
El Muerto though..... who even knows who he was before they announced the movie? Honestly feels like Sony flushing money down the toilet.
tbf to Sony, they didn't choose El Muerto; they wanted to do a movie with Bad Bunny or whatever his name is; and that was the character he said he wanted to do.
Plus, using your same logic: Marvel should have never made Guardians of the Galaxy or Shang-Chi, or hell probably even Iron Man becuase who the hug was Iron Man before the first movie?
Guardians of the Galaxy was a competently-written, competently-directed movie with a compelling story, one which we knew was part of an established universe. Shang-Chi wasn't all that different. As for Iron Man, well, he had an animated series as well as guest spots in the Spider-Man series that was produced at around the same time (complete with the same voice actor!), plus comic fans at least knew that he was a founding member of the Avengers. I'd argue he had more name recognition than the latter two...though I'll concede that most people were probably more familiar with the Black Sabbath song.
Anyway, I think that Madame Web has the same problem that most of Sony's other Spidey-adjacent films have - they're taking a character associated with Spider-Man and trying to tell a movie about them, minus any obvious Spider-Man connections. Venom has been the best and most successful example of this, but I suspect that's less to do with the quality of the films - which I cannot speak to as I haven't seen them - and more to do with name recognition.
Superhero fatigue is real. And theater ticket price fatigue is real. People aren't as willing to see every movie and just hope for the best. There has to be some expectation going in that it's going to be good. With this, there was just no reason for hope.
Venom was surprisingly good. I credit the actors involved and some really good writing.
Madam Webb does not appear to have either.
I ask this not to be an ass, but because I'm genuinely curious. Has Dakota Johnson been good in anything? Like, I have never, ever, heard anyone with a good thing to say about her acting ability. I've heard plenty say that she's not good at all.
It's not just that this is one of those 'movies that no one asked for'. It's not just that it's a whole bunch of C and D list characters that few people outside the hardcore know about. It's all that and it's a female led movie when we're in a time where there's a bunch of hate aimed at comic movies and especially female led or driven comic media. Look at the Marvels. Well written, well acted, yet its box office performance was not great. This is not the Marvels.
I think the best Madame Webb could have hoped for was to be around Mobius tier. A decent, but not spectacular, run of the mill comic movie. Perfectly acceptable around the 2000s, but we expect better and more now.
Madam Webb does not appear to have either.
I ask this not to be an ass, but because I'm genuinely curious. Has Dakota Johnson been good in anything? Like, I have never, ever, heard anyone with a good thing to say about her acting ability. I've heard plenty say that she's not good at all.
It's not just that this is one of those 'movies that no one asked for'. It's not just that it's a whole bunch of C and D list characters that few people outside the hardcore know about. It's all that and it's a female led movie when we're in a time where there's a bunch of hate aimed at comic movies and especially female led or driven comic media. Look at the Marvels. Well written, well acted, yet its box office performance was not great. This is not the Marvels.
I think the best Madame Webb could have hoped for was to be around Mobius tier. A decent, but not spectacular, run of the mill comic movie. Perfectly acceptable around the 2000s, but we expect better and more now.
Doesn't matter the qualities of the movies they got. they're still lesser known properties that almost no one would know about, that still got a chance to shine and became popular. Almost nobody remembers the Ironman TV show except that the first season was trash. So he has about the same level of recognition you say Madam Web has. Same as with Morbius; I doubt anyone would know he exists without the 90's cartoon. I'd also say the same of Doctor Strange, even though he had a pretty good animated movie from the Lionsgate years. I'm pretty sure the only reason people care about him is becuase they cast one of the most popular actors to play him. The fact that their execution might not hit the mark, doesn't change the fact that Sony and Marvel are both taking chances on rather obscure characters and properties. You can't give Sony guff for trying to give other Spider-Man adjacent characters a chance, when Marvel does the same with their lesser known properties as well.
Reading reviews of fellow geeks who opinions I put good stock in, becuase they try to be fair minded; say that Madam Webb is a good movie with a bad execution. Some like it better then they liked the Marvels. Some even actually do talk about how they enjoyed Dakota's preformance in the movie. I still plan to see the movie eventually, becuase I was actually looking forward to it (though actually seeing anything in theaters atm is a hassel). But I've been working on catching up on some of the Marvel stuff I've missed recently; and a lot of the discourse just feels unearned. Like The Marvels might not be the best MCU movie, but it deserves more love then what it got imo. It just feels like lately people can't accept any form of entertainment that isn't a 9 or 10, anything less gets torn down and dismissed.
I always laugh when people act like Iron Man was an unknown character before the movie. Going by that logic the entire Marvel Universe is full of unknowns. Iron Man has been a Marvel constant since his introduction. Nearly the same for Doctor Strange. Both are prominent established Marvel characters that have carried their own for decades. I won't deny star power definitely helped the movies but acting like two larger pillars of the Marvel cannon are the same level as z-list side characters or characters that have never been able to run more than a few years is.
Guardians of the Galaxy is largely a recent success I wouldn't even tie to the original comics. The team it focuses on is based on a concept Marvel had some success with in the previous decade to the movie and was worth a shot to try out. Shang-Chi..... well he's a more unique hero to most of their roster they have put out so far. I can't blame them for trying. But he's never had a book running for long.
If we're lucky Sony could be dropping El Murte since it seems Bad Bunny has jumped off production.
And yes it's very much name recognition with Venom. He's got enough credit to actually draw in people without Spider-Man being there. Though most would probably prefer some ties to Spidey over nothing.
As far as Fatigue, won't deny it, but it's not the only issue. Prices for sure especially when during the covid years we were able to watch quite a lot with little to no wait from theater to home. A lot of people are willing to wait it out now. Heck the main reason I went to Madam Web was to get some value out of my Unlimited Ticket. It was ok. Above anything produced in the 90's, but no one gave any sort of great performance.
And I hate to agree but yes the anti female superhero BS hurts it more than Marvels. At least with Captain Marvel it's tied into the greater MCU and some will see the movies for that alone. Madam Web tries to make some random BS ties to the Spidey mythos just to make it in with Spider-man that makes it much beyond the realm of possibility even for most comic movies.
If anything always judge a movie for yourself. I usually try to give most the benefit of the doubt even if I have some misgivings. GotG was definitely a happy surprise to me years ago, and I tend to favor most MCU films decently well. And people have the right to enjoy what they like. But honestly this wasn't a good idea to have produced to begin with. This is Sony just doing what they can to push out films to keep their license.
Guardians of the Galaxy is largely a recent success I wouldn't even tie to the original comics. The team it focuses on is based on a concept Marvel had some success with in the previous decade to the movie and was worth a shot to try out. Shang-Chi..... well he's a more unique hero to most of their roster they have put out so far. I can't blame them for trying. But he's never had a book running for long.
If we're lucky Sony could be dropping El Murte since it seems Bad Bunny has jumped off production.
And yes it's very much name recognition with Venom. He's got enough credit to actually draw in people without Spider-Man being there. Though most would probably prefer some ties to Spidey over nothing.
As far as Fatigue, won't deny it, but it's not the only issue. Prices for sure especially when during the covid years we were able to watch quite a lot with little to no wait from theater to home. A lot of people are willing to wait it out now. Heck the main reason I went to Madam Web was to get some value out of my Unlimited Ticket. It was ok. Above anything produced in the 90's, but no one gave any sort of great performance.
And I hate to agree but yes the anti female superhero BS hurts it more than Marvels. At least with Captain Marvel it's tied into the greater MCU and some will see the movies for that alone. Madam Web tries to make some random BS ties to the Spidey mythos just to make it in with Spider-man that makes it much beyond the realm of possibility even for most comic movies.
If anything always judge a movie for yourself. I usually try to give most the benefit of the doubt even if I have some misgivings. GotG was definitely a happy surprise to me years ago, and I tend to favor most MCU films decently well. And people have the right to enjoy what they like. But honestly this wasn't a good idea to have produced to begin with. This is Sony just doing what they can to push out films to keep their license.
So has Green Lantern over in DC; but you know what people think of most with him nowadays? The Ryan Reynolds Movie. Doesn't matter that he's been in other cartoons, had his own really good animated series; had several good animated moives. All that matters is that movie, and is why we've barely seen him in anything since.
Ironman, Capt America, and Thor were important characters in Marvel Comics for decades; but before the MCU they were barely a blip on radar of pop culture consciousness. And each of them had had appearances outside of comics as well. But the fact is Marvel's actual pillars were for the very longest Hulk, Spider-Man and Wolverine/X-Men. And those were the ones that got good series and movies that people remembered. Captain America had a Cartoon in the same vein as the 60's Spider-man one, with an equally campy theme song. But hardly anyone remembers that.
You can talk about how they were important in comics for decades, but that doesn't change that they were indeed nobodies to pop culture for those same decades. And I've been reading comics all my life; I've been a fan of Ironman since the 90's. I had the majority of his toyline, I watched his cartoon all the time, even the less great first season that was basically a He-Man ripoff. If the series had been more like the second season from the start, maybe it would be better remembered. For me he was my third favorite Marvel series after Spider-Man and X-Men. I was excited for the first movie and loved the casting of RDJ since spiritally he was the closest thing to a real life Ironman; he had a lot of the same issues and demons that Tony in the comics had. I'm not someone that is unaware of the characters or thier histories before the MCU, I'm just not blind to the fact that unlike DC, Marvel had two entirely different trinities. You had the three that were important to the Marvel Universe; Cap, Ironman, and Thor; all more or less Founding Avengers and then you had the three that the Public actually knew and cared about; Spider-Man, Hulk, and Wolverine.
It also doesn't help when your lead says she hasn't watched the damn movie as a "form of self-care", and is also trash-talking her co-stars.
It was just a disaster, start to finish.
It was just a disaster, start to finish.
And this is where the divide to me comes at. Yes just about every superhero was devoid from the larger pop culture save from the ones you mentioned above. But you got to focus on the initial fan base of comic fans to at least focus on something first. You can’t just throw out any comic book character into a movie and expect it to be good. Even the MCU has suffered from that approach lately. Sony is trying to squeeze everything and more out of the limited scope of characters they can get away with and it shows. Morbius at least has been a character that has tried to grow its fan base over the years do I don’t blame them for trying, but he was never very consistent.
But again Sony only has access to a small portion of Marvel’s overall pantheon of characters. If you are honest there aren’t that many bankable names outside of anyone’s name that starts with Spider or Venom. Black Cat maybe, but most in the greater pop culture as you would say would confuse her with Catwoman. And I know I would love a Silver Sable movie but honestly I don’t see Sony doing it justice because she’s not a character most would care about.
Overall you can’t expect an MCU franchise out of a single character’s rights.
But again Sony only has access to a small portion of Marvel’s overall pantheon of characters. If you are honest there aren’t that many bankable names outside of anyone’s name that starts with Spider or Venom. Black Cat maybe, but most in the greater pop culture as you would say would confuse her with Catwoman. And I know I would love a Silver Sable movie but honestly I don’t see Sony doing it justice because she’s not a character most would care about.
Overall you can’t expect an MCU franchise out of a single character’s rights.
I still don't feel like such a thing existed for Shang-Chi, which still ended up being on of the best recent movies; or Echo who again ended up being on of the best recent TV Series. The two major missteps from Marvel (in new properties, not sequels) seems to be the Inhumans, who even in comics never do well; as mostly only Black Bolt and Lockjaw are the only ones people really care about, if that. And Eternals, which similarly is a group pretty much no one cares about despite whatever importantance they have to the actual Marvel Univese.
GOTG is series where until the movies, could never hold a comic series for long either. Dr. Strange even after the movies, can't keep a steady comic going for long. Fantastic Four is probably the most ideal example of "well-known and important" but has never managed to resonate even with the larger comic reading audiences. Their cartoons just kinda exist, Their movies are mostly mid at best so far, when Marvel stopped publishing them for awhile, most comics fans didn't really care. And this is for one of the most famous and important teams in the Marvel universe, pretty much the very first team book they ever did iirc. They still can't sell a movie to save their lives; enough so that even Marvel Casting Pedro Pascal for Reed; the only thing people seem to talk about is Pedro Pascal.
Sony absolutely could make money and good movie on Spider-Man adjacent characters. Silk, Spider-Gwen, a Movie about either Goblin would probably do very well. Black Cat, yes she's very similar to Catwoman, DC Has Aquaman but that didn't stop Namor from being a headliner in Wakanda Forever. DC has Suicide Squad It's not stopping Marvel from making Thunderbolts. And yes, I think El Muerto could have been interesting since its largely Stunt Casting for a popular actor (You can't tell me people went to see Dr. Strange for DR. Strange and not for Benedict), and a character that the actor is/was enthusastic about (One of the reasons Venom works and why Deadpool is so sucessful); but also a character with so little baggage and connection to Spider-Man that leave them open to a llot of possibilities. There are reasons it could have been good, despite being a total z-list character.
It’s not impossible, but highly improbable. At this point I would give Spider Gwen a chance because she has blown up considerably in the public consciousness a great deal even before she was in the Spider-Verse movie. Sadly she’s probably overtaken the rest of the Spider Women in popularity despite being relatively the newest. Silk was only a few months ahead of her but honestly the only thing she’s known for is jumping on Pete boner and being a plot device of the original Spider Verse.
Again I don’t deny star power can’t make a movie. But you can’t say everyone is going for that reason alone. Honestly yeah Dr. Strange hasn’t the best track record in books either. But he gets around otherwise. They want to introduce Magic largely into the MCU you aren’t going to start with Brother Voodoo. Strange was the choice to make as he has been the most consistent Magic user in Marvel. Before that they took Magic out of most of the previous movies explaining it away as science we don’t understands in Thor or power given to Wanda by an Infinity Stone in Age of Ultron.
As far as soloing the Goblin characters I feel like it’s a make or break situation. I don’t trust Sony to make the effort after Morbius or Web. And if all Sony does is churn out sub par movies to keep their Spider-Man rights that feature characters that most comic fans don’t care about, you can’t expect the greater public to give any care to it.
Honestly we have two varying viewpoints of what’s popular from what I can see. Neither of us are going to agree fully. All I can say is that In Sony’s case they are trying to push what they have rights to too far. You can’t expect every superhero movie to be a winner. And while there is something to be said about many other factors, choosing the right character can be a big point too. And Madam Web was DoA just due to that.
Again I don’t deny star power can’t make a movie. But you can’t say everyone is going for that reason alone. Honestly yeah Dr. Strange hasn’t the best track record in books either. But he gets around otherwise. They want to introduce Magic largely into the MCU you aren’t going to start with Brother Voodoo. Strange was the choice to make as he has been the most consistent Magic user in Marvel. Before that they took Magic out of most of the previous movies explaining it away as science we don’t understands in Thor or power given to Wanda by an Infinity Stone in Age of Ultron.
As far as soloing the Goblin characters I feel like it’s a make or break situation. I don’t trust Sony to make the effort after Morbius or Web. And if all Sony does is churn out sub par movies to keep their Spider-Man rights that feature characters that most comic fans don’t care about, you can’t expect the greater public to give any care to it.
Honestly we have two varying viewpoints of what’s popular from what I can see. Neither of us are going to agree fully. All I can say is that In Sony’s case they are trying to push what they have rights to too far. You can’t expect every superhero movie to be a winner. And while there is something to be said about many other factors, choosing the right character can be a big point too. And Madam Web was DoA just due to that.