Star Trek General Discussion

[The Predaking]

Yeah, it was great. But they made him normal again so he can't be a villain anymore, oh well.

Yeah, he is in Prelude to Axanar though:

Overall, I'm glad to have watched it all but, wow, it really was a product of its time.

It definitely is. The horny days of the 1960s definitely shows here, hence the romance in almost every episode. Still it laid some great ground work and did some great things in its day.

Oooh, I'm going to have to rewatch Lower Decks (after Voyager... and Enterprise? Or no?) to pick up on other references I missed, hehe. But I think I'll watch the Animated series first, since they're so short.

Whew!

Animated is a great direction to go after this. I would follow that up with Enterprise next. It is set about 60 or so years before TOS, but its really good series that didn't get the credit it deserved. I should note, that you might want to watch the TNG movies before you watch Enterprise though. Just a couple episodes will reference the events of TNG:First Contact. I would recommend saving Voyager for last, not because of its quality, but because it was the last chronologically Star Trek show in the prime universe until Picard aired. Its a great show itself, and underrated at the time.

 

[DefaultOption]

Wow, I'm finally done with TOS.

If you really want a trip, now watch a few episodes of S1 of TNG, and you can really see just how much they were trying to recreate the original show but with a different cast and updated effects. Thankfully they took things in their own direction after a couple of years.

Also, Animated is a great follow-up to TOS, since they were sort of trying to fill out the rest of the five-year mission.

 

[Ungnome]

Considering they reused a lot of the scripts and concepts from the unrealized phase 2 project in early TNG, that's not all that surprising.

 

[G.B.Blackrock]

Considering they reused a lot of the scripts and concepts from the unrealized phase 2 project in early TNG, that's not all that surprising.

Unless I'm mistaken, most of the "Phase 2 reuses" came after Season 1 of TNG.

Take that for what it's worth.

 

[Ungnome]

Double checked and you are right. Several CHARACTERS are reworked phase II characters, though. Xon became Data, Ilia became Troy, and Decker became Riker(despite both Ilia and Decker having major roles in TMP)

 

[Andrusi]

Now that I think about it, the first time they straight up used a Phase II script was the start of season 2. That's also when they promoted La Forge to chief engineer, which they seemingly didn't think they needed in season 1, and replaced Dr. Crusher with the much more Bones-like Dr. Pulaski. I wonder if, given that they already had a not-Decker, a not-Ilia, and a not-Xon, the showrunners decided to deliberately bring the cast lineup more in line with Phase II's to make it easier to reuse scripts and story concepts.

 

[Ungnome]

Don't think so, the only reason that the two phase II scripts were used was to fill voids left by a couple of writer strikes. Polaski WAS probably brought in to be a 'new Bones', though. Roddenberry's right hand man at the time had some sort of beef with McFadden and convinced him to fire her. Whoops for him, the fans actually preferred Crusher to Pulaski.(Pulaski did have her moments as a character, but I do prefer Crusher overall myself)

 

[ZacWilliam1]

I'm gonna be honest, Gates is pretty and her "relationship" with Picard was interesting but other than that I always found Dr Crusher a hair boring. She just never had a ton of personality or "interests." Like I feel like I could write in at least an attempt at the voice of the rest of the cast, but for Dr Crusher... other than medical jargon or worrying about Wesley I got nothing.

Pulaski was more abrasive at times, but has more personality and was also more fun, especially when played against Data.


ZacWilliam, I always loved that they turned Ilia (like "Ilium") into Troy , another name for the same place.

 

[Ungnome]

Fair enough. I believe McFadden felt the same way. The TNG writers seemed to have a trouble figuring out how to handle both Crusher and Troy and if Muldaur had lasted more than a season of TNG, I might have grown to like her character more.

Of course it could have also been that McFadden had red hair and was rather attractive to boot and, well, TNG ran during 'that time' in this closeted trans lesbians life.(Same probably goes for Scully from X-Files)

 

[Fero McPigletron]

Too much info to get into (what in heavens is Prelude to Axanar? And I know I'm pretty sure that the Naked Now TNG ep2 is one of the repurposed TOS scripts? Right? No?) but I'm finished with the Animated Series.

It was pretty awesome! Can't get into the ones I really liked (Yesteryear where Spock has a pet was WOW. Who was Thelin the Andorian replacement? The Magicks episode with Lucian, holy cow that was great. Tribbles, Mudd, the shore leave planet. The Lower Decks references I recognized were the shapeshifter from the Caves ep ((which was another great ep)), the giant Spock ((holy cow, how did he die and why is he in a collector's museum in Lower Decks, the alien who can split into parts ((from the ep where Boimler almost beats the Borg simulation)) and I'm rambling.

Anyhow, I'm suppose to watch Enterprise with Captain Archer next? I'll watch the movies in between. I read before that it was... bad, then good, then bad?

Edit - decided to watch Enterprise ep1 broken bow. Seems to be political and action oriented. Suits make them seem more army types. Starting ep2. What in heavens is that intro? It's so... nationalistic?

 

[The Predaking]

(what in heavens is Prelude to Axanar?

Watch the youtube video I posted, It's about 21 minutes long. You will recognize a couple of the actors in it, but essentially it was the greatest Fan fiction show ever made that was set in the time leading up to TOS. It is seriously worth a watch though. It is so good that Paramount had to sue them.

And I know I'm pretty sure that the Naked Now TNG ep2 is one of the repurposed TOS scripts? Right? No?)

It is the same virus and a sort of continuation of that TOS episode as Crusher uses a variant of the cure Bones made.

but I'm finished with the Animated Series.

It was pretty awesome! Can't get into the ones I really liked (Yesteryear where Spock has a pet was WOW. Who was Thelin the Andorian replacement? The Magicks episode with Lucian, holy cow that was great. Tribbles, Mudd, the shore leave planet. The Lower Decks references I recognized were the shapeshifter from the Caves ep ((which was another great ep)), the giant Spock ((holy cow, how did he die and why is he in a collector's museum in Lower Decks, the alien who can split into parts ((from the ep where Boimler almost beats the Borg simulation)) and I'm rambling.

I love the Time Traveling episode on Vulcan. It's definitely my favorite.

Anyhow, I'm suppose to watch Enterprise with Captain Archer next? I'll watch the movies in between. I read before that it was... bad, then good, then bad?

Edit - decided to watch Enterprise ep1 broken bow. Seems to be political and action oriented. Suits make them seem more army types. Starting ep2. What in heavens is that intro? It's so... nationalistic?

Enterprise like Voyager has a bad reputation. While they aren't as good at TNG and DS9, they are still great shows. Enterprise was cut short and only lasts 4 seasons, and the last season is full of fan service.

 

[Dekafox]

Watch the youtube video I posted, It's about 21 minutes long. You will recognize a couple of the actors in it, but essentially it was the greatest Fan fiction show ever made that was set in the time leading up to TOS. It is seriously worth a watch though. It is so good that Paramount had to sue them.

That wasn't why Paramount sued. Why they sued was because the guy that was running it was trying to siphon off the kickstarter funds to start his own production studio, while continuing to delay the actual film. You know how most of these fan projects rely on the fact they're not trying to make a profit? It's like if someone tried making an X-men fan comic via kickstarter, then funded a new comics company for superhero comics from that money, while never even delivering apart form a five page preview. And I do mean the actual X-men, not copies with the serial numbers filed off. You think Marvel/Disney would let that slip by?

If he hadn't been trying to use it to launch his own professional production studio with that money and resources, and just actually made the damn thing, this all wouldn't have blown up and made Paramount bring the hammer down on fan products, as they'd been extremely leniant up until then. Like a fan studio called Hidden Frontier Productions produced a fairly decent version of their own take on Voyager's concept via the Andromeda galaxy(with a Romulan officer instead of the Maquis), and I actually enjoyed it for the most part.

Or Star Trek Continues for another example outright using Kirk and such as characters, even if different actors. Now none of that's possible because one maker's ego got too big for what he was doing and thought he could get away wiht using it to launch his own brand, rather than just do his own thing like The Orville did.

 

[The Predaking]

That wasn't why Paramount sued. Why they sued was because the guy that was running it was trying to siphon off the kickstarter funds to start his own production studio, while continuing to delay the actual film. You know how most of these fan projects rely on the fact they're not trying to make a profit? It's like if someone tried making an X-men fan comic via kickstarter, then funded a new comics company for superhero comics from that money, while never even delivering apart form a five page preview. And I do mean the actual X-men, not copies with the serial numbers filed off. You think Marvel/Disney would let that slip by?

If he hadn't been trying to use it to launch his own professional production studio with that money and resources, and just actually made the damn thing, this all wouldn't have blown up and made Paramount bring the hammer down on fan products, as they'd been extremely leniant up until then. Like a fan studio called Hidden Frontier Productions produced a fairly decent version of their own take on Voyager's concept via the Andromeda galaxy(with a Romulan officer instead of the Maquis), and I actually enjoyed it for the most part.

Or Star Trek Continues for another example outright using Kirk and such as characters, even if different actors. Now none of that's possible because one maker's ego got too big for what he was doing and thought he could get away wiht using it to launch his own brand, rather than just do his own thing like The Orville did.

Wow. That is one way to look at it. Here is the wiki:

Prelude to Axanar - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But seriously, watch Prelude to Axanar. Its great and loads better than anything fan made before or since. They had some stuff that came out after it, but its not as good as the Prelude.

 

[Cybersnark]

Edit - decided to watch Enterprise ep1 broken bow. Seems to be political and action oriented. Suits make them seem more army types. Starting ep2. What in heavens is that intro? It's so... nationalistic?

The thing to remember about Enterprise is that it was released post-9/11 (though much of the first season would already have been written, if not already filmed and finished). It was a contemporary of 24, Band of Brothers, and the overt transformation of Fox into a right-wing propaganda outlet. Both the Producers and the general cultural mode at the time were absolutely all about flag-waving red-white-and-blue-blooded American Nationalism (this becomes especially clear in season 3, which is all about a 9/11-style attack and the expeditionary war that results). There was also a lot of executive meddling, forcing the writers to include stuff they didn't want and struggled to write around (like the Temporal Cold War).

Enterprise gradually recovers from the nationalism (in the process deconstructing it and reaffirming the principles Star Trek should be about), but by then the writing was on the wall.

 

[Dekafox]

Looking back on the Axanar stuff, here's what I was referring to.

Industry Studios aims to provide affordable space for smaller productions

Industry Studios, formerly known as Ares Studios, has nearly completed work that will allow it to open its doors to film, television and still photography projects as the converted warehouse […]

signalscv.com

Industry studios WAS Ares Studios which WAS built for filming Axanar. Rather than just create something to make a fan film like everyone else did, he went and used it to launch a studio intended for other professional and for-profit works.

No shade on Prelude to Axanar, it won a bunch of awards, and the Axanar film itself would have been great as originally envisioned, but he stepped too far over the line on the not-for-profit/profit side, which triggered issues with the DMCA and the "if you don't defend your IP you can lose it" problem. I believe there was merchandise outside the kickstarter involved too, but my memory is a bit fuzzy on that and don't really want to spend the time to go digging further on this at the moment.

Interestingly it sounds like they were still making it from that wikipedia article, in the "allowed" form, as recently as 2022? But then got sued again for breach of settlement and lost? Hadn't heard that bit. Any idea if some final product is still coming, or did that kill it completely?

 

[The Predaking]

The thing to remember about Enterprise is that it was released post-9/11 (though much of the first season would already have been written, if not already filmed and finished). It was a contemporary of 24, Band of Brothers, and the overt transformation of Fox into a right-wing propaganda outlet. Both the Producers and the general cultural mode at the time were absolutely all about flag-waving red-white-and-blue-blooded American Nationalism (this becomes especially clear in season 3, which is all about a 9/11-style attack and the expeditionary war that results). There was also a lot of executive meddling, forcing the writers to include stuff they didn't want and struggled to write around (like the Temporal Cold War).

Enterprise gradually recovers from the nationalism (in the process deconstructing it and reaffirming the principles Star Trek should be about), but by then the writing was on the wall.

Also, that intro rocks! Faith of the heart is a great song and all the space race progress it shows leading up to the NX launch is pretty neat.

 

[The Predaking]

Looking back on the Axanar stuff, here's what I was referring to.

Industry Studios aims to provide affordable space for smaller productions

Industry Studios, formerly known as Ares Studios, has nearly completed work that will allow it to open its doors to film, television and still photography projects as the converted warehouse […]

signalscv.com

Industry studios WAS Ares Studios which WAS built for filming Axanar. Rather than just create something to make a fan film like everyone else did, he went and used it to launch a studio intended for other professional and for-profit works.

No shade on Prelude to Axanar, it won a bunch of awards, and the Axanar film itself would have been great as originally envisioned, but he stepped too far over the line on the not-for-profit/profit side, which triggered issues with the DMCA and the "if you don't defend your IP you can lose it" problem. I believe there was merchandise outside the kickstarter involved too, but my memory is a bit fuzzy on that and don't really want to spend the time to go digging further on this at the moment.

I think that they had shirts.

Interestingly it sounds like they were still making it from that wikipedia article, in the "allowed" form, as recently as 2022? But then got sued again for breach of settlement and lost? Hadn't heard that bit. Any idea if some final product is still coming, or did that kill it completely?

Yeah, they released two more videos I think. They aren't horrible but not up to the level of Prelude.

 

[Shadewing]

The thing to remember about Enterprise is that it was released post-9/11 (though much of the first season would already have been written, if not already filmed and finished). It was a contemporary of 24, Band of Brothers, and the overt transformation of Fox into a right-wing propaganda outlet. Both the Producers and the general cultural mode at the time were absolutely all about flag-waving red-white-and-blue-blooded American Nationalism (this becomes especially clear in season 3, which is all about a 9/11-style attack and the expeditionary war that results). There was also a lot of executive meddling, forcing the writers to include stuff they didn't want and struggled to write around (like the Temporal Cold War).

Enterprise gradually recovers from the nationalism (in the process deconstructing it and reaffirming the principles Star Trek should be about), but by then the writing was on the wall.

I kinda like the idea that the Federation at the start wasn't 100% the Federation we end up having later on. Earth just starting out, with only knowing a few Aliens races? To me it kinda makes a realistic logical sense that there be some trepedation and xenophobia, even if the idea over all was good will. Its a new venture with some untested tech and a lot of unknowns. It feels right that the ideas and core of the Federation would grow and evolve and become more solid once they started having a better grasp of greater universe. I'm not saying Enterprise did that successfully; just that I like the idea of it evolving from a sorta nationalistic perspective to more universal one.

 

[DefaultOption]

Faith of the heart is a great song

The song wasn't terrible, but I really didn't like it as a Star Trek theme. The "Archer's theme" track from the soundtrack album goes really well with the title sequence though:

 

[Fero McPigletron]

I wanna talk about the TOS Animated Series more (cuz it was really awesome. I just breezed by it too quickly) but I'm bumbling into Enterprise eps and have to comment.

101 Broken Bow, I thought / hoped the Klingon would stick around. I just want more alien species on the crew around. The guys are just so, I dunno, army types, not explorers. But I guess they had to start somewhere.

102 Fight or Flight. I know she's the audience surrogate but I hate Hoshi for being insecure at these critical parts. Also she totally killed poor Sluggo! Sluggo is left on alien planet with no other of his kind and he'll die sad and alone anyhow, creepy plot with aliens draining other species seems very severe but I hope it gets revisited.

103 Strange New World. Nice paranoia plot. Very happy that the guy who ran away didn't die. Great acting on Trip going crazy.

104 Unexpected. Aaand Trip is pregnant. Glad the maternal instincts on a man wasn't really played for too much humor. They really restrained themselves. The first parts with first contact and the whole Trip adjusting and being fascinated with the Xyrillians was great. Aaaand then he got pregnant. Glad Archer treated it seriously. T'Pol was being too snarky tho. I laughed when the Klingons laughed too, sorry Trip, haha.

---
Ok, I didn't know about the post 9/11 propaganda. Guess I'll have to get used to the new uniforms and, I dunno, the inherent macho vibe going on? Like, I'm not warming up to T'Pol but she seems to be surrounded by, um, meat heads (can I say that?)? Hoshi being insecure isn't helping.

There seems to be more of a female gaze theme going on. Like, they had Scott Bakula showering in zero gravity in a cold open that wasn't relevant to the plot.

Oh but Porthos is amazing and hope they show that there's more of him running around in the ship so he's not lonely, haha