Star Trek General Discussion

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
God that would be a bizarre world. Like so many products IRL go through a stage in development that's in a computer, whether they're just drafted there, or the product is subjected to some kind of simulations, or there's even an iterative design process using rapid prototyping, or CAD files get cut straight into molds by a CNC machine so the actual master is a digital file. If you had replicator technology, quite a lot of products could be designed, iterated, simulated, tested, and ultimately distributed without using any other kind of manufacturing or any scanning at any stage, from CAD to holodeck to more CAD to replicator and so on until the final file. It's honestly difficult to envision how designing an EPS conduit could work any other way.
 

wonko the sane?

You may test that assumption at your convinience.
Citizen
It streamlines the whole process, eliminates all kinds of physical waste (cause bob from design will still take 3 coffee breaks an hour.), and allows not just universal sharing but large scale, long distance collaboration. Inside the federations subspace network, information functionally travels instantly: you could be working on the problem on a bunch of different worlds at the same time, and still patch in with whomever on a whim.

It's the ultimate representation of industry. You don't just have an idea: you go from idea to "it changed the world and everyone uses it" inside like a week.

Edit: and depending on the scale of the thing; you don't even necessarily need something like a shipyard to install it: you can crank out the components in batches and hand assemble in place. Which is something I noticed about trek designs; yes, there are user serviceable parts inside.
 

Cybersnark

Well-known member
Citizen
One idea I heard many years ago in a book is that replicators have issues with replicating energy (as opposed to matter). They can handle "hot" (lots of molecular movement) or "cold" (little molecular movement), but that's about it. This is why you can't normally replicate things like communicators, tricorders, or phasers (the power cells come out completely dead). Though as we saw on DS9's "Civil Defense," you can replicate something (like a disruptor turret) that attaches to the replicator's own power feed.

(Presumably, if someone had thought to just rip the turret out of the replicator that would've solved the problem.)
 

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
It streamlines the whole process, eliminates all kinds of physical waste (cause bob from design will still take 3 coffee breaks an hour.), and allows not just universal sharing but large scale, long distance collaboration. Inside the federations subspace network, information functionally travels instantly: you could be working on the problem on a bunch of different worlds at the same time, and still patch in with whomever on a whim.
Oh, totally. It's literally a process we've seen happen in some hobby spaces with 3D printing. I'm just saying specifically that I don't think the traditional manufacturing or scanning things into a computer you mentioned previously would play any role in the development of patterns for most durable goods, if the technology of replicators and holodecks is being fully harnessed. (Which is not the same thing as saying that I don't think it's involved in the universe of Star Trek, to be clear - for all I know it's exactly like you described before - because that's a question of interpreting what the writers had in mind rather than just a question of speculating on how the technology might be applied.)

Durable goods that are already designed in computers in the real world just seem like exactly the thing that would transition directly to an all-digital design process. Er. All-duotronic. Isolinear. Whatever.

The user serviceable parts are interesting. It seems like a strong design ethos in Federation tech. In practical terms that's so that devices can be repaired, or modified to do some other completely different thing, as a plot point, or to give actors business in a scene that would just be a lot of talking and magic otherwise. But it also presents itself when the team is stuck on an away mission and needs to use the power cell from a phaser and the transceiver from a broken commbadge to send a Morse code signal about the shapeshifter on board the ship or whatever. That kind of universal intercompatibility makes the technology much more interesting, because it feels like Lego. I think it's just kind of funny to see how it fits into a universe where neither planned obsolescence nor the need to reduce and reuse is applicable, because a faulty power coupling can always be placed inside the magic box and replaced with a functioning one with no waste of materials or labor. Right to repair just has less meaning when you can physically upgrade your phone to the latest model by sticking it in the microwave and nobody's paying for anything.

Ultimately the pattern used on eggs is THE pattern. There's no variation: replicate a million eggs and each time it will taste exactly the same. The eggs from a living source are affected by the thousands of little things that affect all life; the food source, age, general health, stress, ect. Real eggs are probably better (in their minds.) because each experience is unique. And the same goes for all the food from the replicator.

Apparently it's not hard to create a replicator pattern: but you need to have the thing in the first place. So your egg, your recent model plasma conduit, your very latest medication in standard issue hypospray. There is still all the standard industries, just in smaller scale because the goal is just to get the "thing" to the point where they scan it for upload to the federations network.
I really want it to be a more fundamental thing and I'm considering that maybe this has always simply been my personal headcanon and nothing actually to do with the show.

If you give a replicator computer a bunch of protein sequences to synthesize, a random procedural pattern and distribution by which to assemble them, and a geometric model of the shape to fill with them, you could probably produce something edible, even if you wouldn't call it food. The amount of data storage required for such a pattern would be trivial, like, it wouldn't be an inconveniently large file today. Layer in years of practiced work and a thousand times the data and you might have a serviceable hamburger patty. Let's be extremely generous and say it now takes up a terabyte of storage.

If you put a hamburger patty into a transporter, the pattern that exists in the buffer is the physical locations and bonds of somewhere around 10^23 atoms.

The fact that these are things of such wildly different orders really makes me suspect that foods "would" be developed in much the same way as the EPS conduit, and that you would write a hamburger by talking to a holodeck or something (and replicating a lot of taste prototypes along the way). And it feels like an extremely convenient way to differentiate between transporters and replicators in exactly the situations the writers would want to, as well, if bulk matter is just too much data to store exactly, and has to be procedurally mapped or something. So not just that there's only one fried egg that is all fried eggs, but that every cubic micron of the yolk interior or the white etc. is identical to every other.
 

wonko the sane?

You may test that assumption at your convinience.
Citizen
I mean: I'm sure microscopic transcription errors occur, because no technology is flawless, but yeah: every cubic micron is functionally identical. It is called a "replicator" and not "best effortinator".

This statement actually makes McCoys apprehension about the transporter seem reasonable. Nobody wants to have to pop down to sickbay after getting back to the ship cause "oops, all cancer".

If you give a replicator computer a bunch of protein sequences to synthesize, a random procedural pattern and distribution by which to assemble them, and a geometric model of the shape to fill with them, you could probably produce something edible, even if you wouldn't call it food.
HELLO EMERGENCY RATIONS! All the vitamins, minerals, proteins and amino acids any number of living bodies need for prolonged periods of stress and exertion. I heard bashir made a better one, but he isn't sharing.

We know that the replicators have base, stock meals programmed in. Smaller ships probably have less options as the computer cores would be less powerful/less active memory. I mean, that point alone drove caused a conversation that drove sisko into farming his own food. But It also kind of seems like you can affect the recipe in process by stating specific changes. specifying the temperature of the water in the glass, or adding ice, or a twist of something. I want to say you can do more: but my only reference for this is an old TOS book, and I wouldn't necessarily qualify it as viable canon. A lot of those old books were written in the same spirit as the original series; which is to say: no set standard. We know that when the replicators MALFUNCTION they can mix the recipes (tea and sausages, anyone?) or even leave bits out, like the glass of water with no glass. Maybe on the ships of the line: the replicator is more like a "build a bear" in that you have ludicrous amount of say over what you're making (because why not write a new "recipe" on the fly since all the individual ingredients are already in there anyway?) but most people are just happy to crank out the standard stuff cause it's faster, easier and more convinient? It's not like we get a huge swath of example of how picky people are in their quarters when they eat alone, most of the food time we get to see are social moments which are inevitably interrupted by something.

I realize that it's probably an artifact of the audio/visual genre: but it's a very functional and powerful argument in favour of the right to repair. In a society with no worry about waste: why NOT just make interchangeable units when something breaks? I mean, it's how we basically do things NOW: the skills and tools to fix a broken something are become (at least in north america and europe.) quite rare when all you need to do is pull a few wires, and pop a few screws and you're back on your way in a few minutes (once the new unit comes in anyway.). But if you're already at that point: why are you putting people on starships at all? Wouldn't smaller, semi intelligent or at least remote operated drones be far safer and more effective, at least within the bounds of the federations subspace network? I get that the people and their interactions are the point of the show, and technobabble and literally waving a light over something makes for more dramatic content... but I would also kinda like to see the shredder that can chew on starships whole.
 

Fero McPigletron

Feel the fear!
Citizen
Coming from a set of eps but just finished Valiant with the Red Squad and I kinda like it, even with the bad ending. The dark side of child soldiers, sorta. The youngest was 17 so they're almost all adults.

If this was an anime, they would have had an amazing victory. Why couldn't they have given that? They even twisted the knife by have two other escape pods almost successfully escaping but nooooo, one got shot and the other didn't get out of the ship explosion range. I can imagine the panicked kids in the pods crying in despair before the exploded. Dang.

Jake should have had Nog's line about writing both sides and letting the reader decide if young Waters was a bad captain or not. The Red Squad was capable but... they didn't have the maturity yet? He was really after glory at that point? They had already accomplished their mission of scanning the enemy ship. Captain Waters had no emotional backstory to explain if his decision to attack was pride or if it was influenced by the drugs he was taking.

Still, before the horrible ending, I was caught up in Nog's feeling of being part of something greater than himself, of him being promoted chief engineer. I would have liked a Red Squad kid spin off with them having adventures on the Valiant (though they were trained for war and not exploration?). But they're probably put in a lot of teen drama about them having relationships with other, urgh.

Great ep, even with all the dead kids. Soooo does Nog keep his battlefield promotion? Does he have the rank of chief engineer?

---
On the other eps, Worf let a poor agent die just to save Jadzia in Change of Heart. What the hex?!?

It's the same as the Ghostbusters ish possession in The Reckoning where Sisko was going to let Jake die cuz he was embodying the evil spirit (except that beach Kai Winn tampered the systems to draw the spirits away, that beach).

I don't know what to think but dang the choices, haha. I would have let Jake alone, as the wormhole people would probably heal him after. And Jadzia could have some symbiont whatever survival whatevers.

In the Pale Moonlight was kinda crazy. Garak was cold. I'd imagine it cuz of Ziyal's death but she wasn't mentioned. Garak is too professional for that.

Cool on Odo finally dating Kira but I'm more scared of the hologram's autonomy. He can make calls in the real world, he can program other holograms himself, he can read people like a book. He can totally wreak havoc if he goes berserk. Scary. Why can't the Federation make hard light soldiers like that? They already have that Holo doctor in Voyager, whatsisname.

Down to the last eps of season 6.
 

Dekafox

Fabulously Foxy Dragon
Citizen
Cool on Odo finally dating Kira but I'm more scared of the hologram's autonomy. He can make calls in the real world, he can program other holograms himself, he can read people like a book. He can totally wreak havoc if he goes berserk. Scary. Why can't the Federation make hard light soldiers like that? They already have that Holo doctor in Voyager, whatsisname.

Remember that high security prison I mentioned from The 2800 in STO? That's exactly what they do. All the security guards are holographic, with emitters all over the facility. You sort of see something similar with that Daystrom facility in Picard S3 too. The key to remember is mobile emitters still provide a point of vulnerability if you want holosoldiers outside a facility - shoot that and they're done. Within a facility you can also basically eliminate all the security by compromising the computer core or power(which incidentally happens during your visit in STO, and you have to get to the computer core to reboot it).
 

Cybersnark

Well-known member
Citizen
Also miniature mobile emitters are beyond the Federation's current capability; the Doctor got his from the 29th century.

(This also suggests that the mobile emitter Raffi and Worf used in Picard was indeed the Doctor's, which has troubling implications.)

There are plots in a couple of the novels where people try to reproduce the mobile emitter. We don't see the Klingon one [though it's apparently small enough to look like a clothing ornament], but the one built with Federation technology is a big ugly manacle that only lasts for a few hours.

(Hilariously, the superior Klingon one was cobbled together by Emperor Kahless, while under house arrest ["in a cave! With a box of scraps!"]. Klingons also built the time machine future-Janeway used in "Endgame." Klingons apparently have a gift for engineering genius that rivals humanity's, they just don't realize it because they're all so caught up in their Macho Warrior Bullshit.)
 

G.B.Blackrock

Well-known member
Citizen
Also miniature mobile emitters are beyond the Federation's current capability; the Doctor got his from the 29th century.

(This also suggests that the mobile emitter Raffi and Worf used in Picard was indeed the Doctor's, which has troubling implications.)
I don't think that's a necessary conclusion. The 29th century holoemitter was certainly beyond the 24th century capability of Voyager, but there's been decades since then to study that 29th century tech. It's not implausible that they cracked the code by the 25th century in which Picard takes place.

(We don't even know that holoemitters of that kind hadn't existed for centuries by the time of the 29th century. We only know that's when the Doctor's holoemitter came from.)
 

The Predaking

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Don't know the Targ or the Hurq.

I was going to ask where the Eugenics War happened since it was mentioned when Bashir was revealed to be genetically tampered but I'm assuming it's... Star Trek 2 Wrath of Khan? Very happy to know the mutants will be back. They need a better name though.

I've got a season and a half to go.

The Targ are like wild dogs/coyotes/wolves that Klingons keep as pets. Martok has a great scene with Sisko where they talk about marriage being a war.

The eugenic wars were orignally suppssed to happen 30 years or so in the future, which would have put them in the early 90s. Originally, through a selective breeding process, super human peoplke were created that took over the world. They were of course defeated, and the most powerful of them launched himself and his loyal followers off to space in a cryo sleeper ship, called the Botany Bay. This was all before First Contact with the Vulcans. The ship was eventually found in deep space by the Enterprise in the TOS episode, Space Seed. Its a great episode that stands up to this day. Khan comes back in the second film, and that film is arguably the best Star Trek film with the original crew. Definitely worth a watch.

Back to the Eugenics Wars, Apparently, all of the time travel shenanigans that Star Trek has done has altered their history. One of the later SNW episodes even says that the Timeline had changed but it was fighting back by reinserting key events later on. Its the writers way of keeping key events that are supposed to happen in Star Trek so Star Trek can still be our future.
 

The Predaking

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Also that hallucination flashback of Sisko with the social commentary story about black guys writing in the past probably had me seeing Worf and Odo out of make up. Weird seeing Worf without facial hair. Didn't recognize him at first. Then Jake had a mustache, haha. And he got killed. Quark's face, I know from Buffy already. Would have been fun to see Rom or Nog or any Ferengi actors there.

The Fault in Our Stars is one of the best episodes of Star Trek. It doesn't really fit in with the storyline, but its a dang good episode that shows off Avery Brooks, and it just does what Star Trek is supposed to do. I can't even do it justice by trying to explain it.
 

The Predaking

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Coming from a set of eps but just finished Valiant with the Red Squad and I kinda like it, even with the bad ending. The dark side of child soldiers, sorta. The youngest was 17 so they're almost all adults.

If this was an anime, they would have had an amazing victory. Why couldn't they have given that? They even twisted the knife by have two other escape pods almost successfully escaping but nooooo, one got shot and the other didn't get out of the ship explosion range. I can imagine the panicked kids in the pods crying in despair before the exploded. Dang.

Jake should have had Nog's line about writing both sides and letting the reader decide if young Waters was a bad captain or not. The Red Squad was capable but... they didn't have the maturity yet? He was really after glory at that point? They had already accomplished their mission of scanning the enemy ship. Captain Waters had no emotional backstory to explain if his decision to attack was pride or if it was influenced by the drugs he was taking.

Still, before the horrible ending, I was caught up in Nog's feeling of being part of something greater than himself, of him being promoted chief engineer. I would have liked a Red Squad kid spin off with them having adventures on the Valiant (though they were trained for war and not exploration?). But they're probably put in a lot of teen drama about them having relationships with other, urgh.

Great ep, even with all the dead kids. Soooo does Nog keep his battlefield promotion? Does he have the rank of chief engineer?

---
On the other eps, Worf let a poor agent die just to save Jadzia in Change of Heart. What the hex?!?

It's the same as the Ghostbusters ish possession in The Reckoning where Sisko was going to let Jake die cuz he was embodying the evil spirit (except that beach Kai Winn tampered the systems to draw the spirits away, that beach).

I don't know what to think but dang the choices, haha. I would have let Jake alone, as the wormhole people would probably heal him after. And Jadzia could have some symbiont whatever survival whatevers.

In the Pale Moonlight was kinda crazy. Garak was cold. I'd imagine it cuz of Ziyal's death but she wasn't mentioned. Garak is too professional for that.

Cool on Odo finally dating Kira but I'm more scared of the hologram's autonomy. He can make calls in the real world, he can program other holograms himself, he can read people like a book. He can totally wreak havoc if he goes berserk. Scary. Why can't the Federation make hard light soldiers like that? They already have that Holo doctor in Voyager, whatsisname.

Down to the last eps of season 6.


I also found Red Squad to be the cocky kids. Anyone in their right mind would have taken the Valiant back to Federation space as soon as the officers were killed off. I get that the officers were basically co-conspirators in a coup of the federation, but the kids were just cadets doing what they were told. They should have came back at the first opportunity, rather than play officer on a top of the line federation warship.


In the Pale Moonlight is widely considered to be the best episode of DS9. The plot is epic, the characters grow and change throughout the episode, the twist was perfectly done, the stakes are galactic, and the ending is perfect. I remember watching this when it first aired. My whole family was hooked on this episode, as we all knew it was a monumental one. At the end when Sisko goes to confront Garak, my dad said that "Garak knew Sisko was going to hit him. He knew it a week ago.". And I think that is what makes that episode work so well, as it shows just how capable Garak still is. Now all that said, I still say that The Visitor is a better episode, as once you seen In the Pale Moonlight, it doesn't hit the same on repeat viewings. You will pick up on some things that Garak says and does when you watch it again, but The Visitor will have you chopping onions every single time.

Odo and Kira are the best couple on this show. Now that they are dating, I like them together even more. The hologram of Vic Fontane is a highly advanced one that was written by one of Bashir's friends. He is meant to be Aware and sentient. He is a fully realized AI. Its crucial to what he does, which is to help people relax during this galactic war.
 

Fero McPigletron

Feel the fear!
Citizen
Uh, I actually forget what year DS9 is, even though I keep seeing the Stardate journal intro stuff. I don't know when the Picard show is happening or... New Worlds? I remember Sisko got awarded a Christopher Pike (?) something and... he's Kirk's captain? Or something? So I'm not sure where the tech level of holograms are. Though I'm sure DS9 is happening at the same time as Voyager cuz the Holo doctor creator appeared for that supposed Holo of Bashir.

Anyhow, I finished Tears of the Prophet s6 finally and had to watch to watch the s7 first ep to make sure that they really killed Jadzia off?!? WTFerengi?!?! I'd have expected Worf to go crazy or whatever.

I didn't skip watching the s7 intro in case they changed it and I just happened to see an... Indazi something Dax. Soooo I got semi spoiled that Dax was coming back. And Jadzia was dead for real.

Yeeeeeah, I kinda regret saying I'd have been fine if Worf left her to sorta die so he could complete the spy pick up mission in that other ep. I really thought Jadzia had plot armor, dang.

Last season. I want to see what happens to Dukat, even though, at this point, no one knows who killed Jadzia, right?

Also, I'm kinda not wild about the whole spiritual part of DS9. Prophecies can be explained by time travel, they already have telepathy and all that but the religion side could be more technical. Sisko could be more clinical, haha. Yes, they really have gods in the form of superior beings in the wormhole aliens and the orbs are... well, I don't know but they're alien tech. It doesn't have to be that mysterious, haha.

---
Oh, on the other eps, I thought the Times Orphan Molly lost in time was going to be tragic, that they'd return her to the past to be alone until she died but then they saved it and her feral self still died. Still sad.

This ep and the 300 years back in the past where the crew crashed and had children and Odo killed them episode Children of Time were Avengers Endgame precursor ideas. If I had seen those eps before I saw that movie, I would have gotten the emotional reasons for why not just going back before the five year skip blip etc.

Knew the twist coming In The Sound of Her Voice but still tragic. She died alone.

Anyhow, gotta see the new Dax next.
 

The Predaking

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Uh, I actually forget what year DS9 is, even though I keep seeing the Stardate journal intro stuff. I don't know when the Picard show is happening or... New Worlds? I remember Sisko got awarded a Christopher Pike (?) something and... he's Kirk's captain? Or something? So I'm not sure where the tech level of holograms are. Though I'm sure DS9 is happening at the same time as Voyager cuz the Holo doctor creator appeared for that supposed Holo of Bashir.

Anyhow, I finished Tears of the Prophet s6 finally and had to watch to watch the s7 first ep to make sure that they really killed Jadzia off?!? WTFerengi?!?! I'd have expected Worf to go crazy or whatever.

I didn't skip watching the s7 intro in case they changed it and I just happened to see an... Indazi something Dax. Soooo I got semi spoiled that Dax was coming back. And Jadzia was dead for real.

Yeeeeeah, I kinda regret saying I'd have been fine if Worf left her to sorta die so he could complete the spy pick up mission in that other ep. I really thought Jadzia had plot armor, dang.

Last season. I want to see what happens to Dukat, even though, at this point, no one knows who killed Jadzia, right?

Also, I'm kinda not wild about the whole spiritual part of DS9. Prophecies can be explained by time travel, they already have telepathy and all that but the religion side could be more technical. Sisko could be more clinical, haha. Yes, they really have gods in the form of superior beings in the wormhole aliens and the orbs are... well, I don't know but they're alien tech. It doesn't have to be that mysterious, haha.

Season 1 of DS9 starts in the year 2369. Voyager starts in 2371, so yes, they are happening at about the same time. Pike was the Captain of the Enterprise before Kirk was. The Enterprise was originally captained by Robert April in 2245, then Pike in 2254, then Kirk in 2265 at the start of the Original Series. New Worlds takes place during the time line when Pike is commanding the Enterprise. Kirk and Pike never served together, but Spock and Uhura served under Pike. Picard season 1 starts in 2399.

How the Pike stuff came about was that Star Trek originally made a pilot called The Cage, where the ship is commanded by Pike. Spock is a LT and more emotional, the actress that plays Troi's mom was the second in command, and they go to investigate an SOS. It was a good episode, but the show didn't get pick up. However, Desilu let them shoot a new pilot, and that was the one that we got with an updated bridge, Uhura, logical Spock, where they cross the galactic barrier. They eventually turned the Cage into a two-parter episode where Spock literally hijacks the Enterprise so he could take his old captain, that is now in a debilitated state following a training accident, back to the world they went to in The Cage. Its a great way to reuse their original pilot and the story worked very well.


Oh, they know who killed Dax. Although, Worf doesn't hunt Dukat down, vengeance will come. They killed her off due to her wanting to have less episodes in season 7. It seems that everyone involved wants to shift the blame for this horrible decision.

So here is the general setup now that you have got this far.

The worm hole aliens exist outside of space time. They don't exist in a linear timeline like humans and the rest of the galaxy do. They knew that they would need Sisko, so they made sure that he was created by basically possessing a woman and then leaving the baby boy with his dad while trapping the Mom Prophet outside of the wormhole so she could open it back up after Dukat sealed it at the end of Season 6. Sisko is literally a hybrid human/Prophet which is why he is the emissary.
 

Cybersnark

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Uh, I actually forget what year DS9 is, even though I keep seeing the Stardate journal intro stuff. I don't know when the Picard show is happening or... New Worlds? I remember Sisko got awarded a Christopher Pike (?) something and... he's Kirk's captain? Or something? So I'm not sure where the tech level of holograms are. Though I'm sure DS9 is happening at the same time as Voyager cuz the Holo doctor creator appeared for that supposed Holo of Bashir.
DS9 is late 24th century (running from 2369 to 2375). As you note, it overlaps with TNG (in the beginning) and Voyager (at the end).

Picard is set 24 years later in 2399 (to 2401).

Pike's era is ancient history; Strange New Worlds takes place in 2259, though whether the modern "Secret Hideout" era is really compatible with the classic era (TOS/TNG/DS9/Voy/Ent) is still a subject of debate.

Kirk's five-year mission was from 2265 to 2270.
 

tec

Maystor missspelur
Citizen
DAMN DO I LOVE DS9!!!!

Lately I felt like watching something and saw a short clip from DS9 from Trekculture about Captains worst to best and thought yeah lets rewatch DS9!
BEST DESISION EVER Emissary is so damn good ahhh
 

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
I mean: I'm sure microscopic transcription errors occur, because no technology is flawless, but yeah: every cubic micron is functionally identical. It is called a "replicator" and not "best effortinator".
That wasn't my point though. "Real" food is not uniform like that, but you would save an awful lot of storage space that way.

HELLO EMERGENCY RATIONS! All the vitamins, minerals, proteins and amino acids any number of living bodies need for prolonged periods of stress and exertion. I heard bashir made a better one, but he isn't sharing.
Emergency rations have to keep and be edible at room temperature, and they're usually designed for eating without utensils as well aren't they? There are constraints on the design beyond the ones that would normally apply to replicator food. But the replicator can also theoretically produce things that we couldn't dream of by any present-day methods. I would be very surprised if the food wasn't significantly healthier than its traditional equivalents. I mean, why not, when you can?

And again, I have no doubt that a process like this, designing food from the proteins up, could result in fully convincing imitations of all kinds of foods. Again, I think the Impossible Burger is a natural illustration here. It's a chemistry challenge to convincingly disguise one kind of food as a completely different other one, and it is convincing as a mediocre version of the thing it's imitating. Imagine what you could do when you can assemble the molecules in place. You could probably generate a convincingly mediocre rendition of almost anything, right?

In fact, I imagine replicator food partly gets its bad rap in Star Trek for some unearned reasons. Relative scarcity and invested effort tend to raise the perceived value of things. "Real" food takes a lot of work, so the things that distinguish it are probably going to largely be perceived as valuable.

We know that the replicators have base, stock meals programmed in. Smaller ships probably have less options as the computer cores would be less powerful/less active memory. I mean, that point alone drove caused a conversation that drove sisko into farming his own food. But It also kind of seems like you can affect the recipe in process by stating specific changes. specifying the temperature of the water in the glass, or adding ice, or a twist of something. I want to say you can do more: but my only reference for this is an old TOS book, and I wouldn't necessarily qualify it as viable canon. A lot of those old books were written in the same spirit as the original series; which is to say: no set standard. We know that when the replicators MALFUNCTION they can mix the recipes (tea and sausages, anyone?) or even leave bits out, like the glass of water with no glass. Maybe on the ships of the line: the replicator is more like a "build a bear" in that you have ludicrous amount of say over what you're making (because why not write a new "recipe" on the fly since all the individual ingredients are already in there anyway?) but most people are just happy to crank out the standard stuff cause it's faster, easier and more convinient? It's not like we get a huge swath of example of how picky people are in their quarters when they eat alone, most of the food time we get to see are social moments which are inevitably interrupted by something.
Altering the "recipes" on the fly is also similar to the holdoeck, which is used in several cases to visualize and narrow in a specific object or scene by talking to the computer to adjust and modify the projection. From my perspective, I think that's part of the benefit of designing replicator patterns the way I think they do. If you add eggs, sausage, and cheese to a biscuit/scone, it's just tapping a series of preexisting subroutines, and the cheese routine is smart enough to melt the cheese onto the egg.

I don't think the computer has the ability to distinguish those parts on the fly in a real object, such that you could set a plate of shepherd's pie on the transporter pad and deconstruct it into a plate of normal food. In fact I think the transporter is very limited in terms of what it can distinguish, except when the plot demands it to be able to disable weapons or screen for pathogens or implant secret sleeper agent DNA. Otherwise it would appear in way more than just one highly experimental medical procedure.

I realize that it's probably an artifact of the audio/visual genre: but it's a very functional and powerful argument in favour of the right to repair. In a society with no worry about waste: why NOT just make interchangeable units when something breaks? I mean, it's how we basically do things NOW: the skills and tools to fix a broken something are become (at least in north america and europe.) quite rare when all you need to do is pull a few wires, and pop a few screws and you're back on your way in a few minutes (once the new unit comes in anyway.).
I think the whys and why nots have answers though. Right to repair assumes a power imbalance of economics and fabrication technology between the producer and the consumer, as well as a calculus of material waste and environmental impacts. Taking your tractor to the dealer or your phone to the wireless store means you're on the hook for whatever contractual rules and costs they want to impose, and it means that if the material cost of creating a new item is less than the labor cost of repair, they're happy to produce any amount of e-waste and resource extraction demand as long as they optimize for their own costs. There's no incentive to recycling if it's cheaper to dig up more alumin(i)um and lithium instead, and demanufacturing is a costly and incomplete process. But if instead you're taking a PADD to the replimat and they can recycle it into a brand new one instantly with no strings attached, or maybe you can even do it yourself in your own replicator at home, the whole calculus changes. In essence, things can be reparable and modifiable already when they're not made of user accessible parts.

And to be clear, none of this is realistic, replicators are magic, and this economy would never exist in the real world, but it does in the fictional one and it has implications. Maybe it's good that user serviceability is still represented the way it is for that reason.

As for the why not: The same reason companies don't prioritize user serviceability in consumer electronics today, and "imagine that, but everywhere." You can make a phone thinner by gluing it together and a laptop lighter by soldering the RAM onto the board. Now imagine a technology where casings don't have to have seams at all, and everything can be fused into place. Everything is unibody, everything is waterproof, and there are no manufacturing limitations related to assembly. Until something breaks, every device is going to be more compact, efficient, and reliable than its user serviceable counterpart, and when something does break, you can stick it in the microwave.

It's a very different calculus.

But if you're already at that point: why are you putting people on starships at all? Wouldn't smaller, semi intelligent or at least remote operated drones be far safer and more effective, at least within the bounds of the federations subspace network? I get that the people and their interactions are the point of the show, and technobabble and literally waving a light over something makes for more dramatic content... but I would also kinda like to see the shredder that can chew on starships whole.
I think it's the Human Spirit. Star Trek technology as envisioned in TNG should be on the other side of a singularity. Not necessarily the Kurzweil one, though something like it is certainly possible.

It bothers me a little when the crew steals an Enterprise - maybe the original, maybe the D, whatever - and can run it with a bridge crew of five people and one engineer. What are the other two hundred to one thousand people doing? The only things it seems that the computer can't do by itself per bridge commands are repairing the ship, repairing people in sickbay, flying the ship fancy, and repelling boarders. The ship's computer can even be a star player in discovering technobabble solutions to problems, with the right search questions. There are handwaves about people wanting to be out there doing the exploring, but a lot of them end up dying of catastrophic workstation failure or being compromised on deck six in the process. There's certainly a possible read of that situation that's pretty dystopian, like the technologies exist for most or all of these jobs to be automated away but people just want to feel useful.

(I think the real narrative solution to this problem would be to involve more crew members in more ship functions, and say that it takes a room of a couple dozen people to operate the shields or something, but it's still very difficult to really explain why it would. Or you could be Deep Space Nine, and have a grubby old station built with slave labor and your only combat ship is designed for a bridge crew of seven people, one doctor, and one engineer. But not every show can be Deep Space Nine. I've even thought about recently that you could just make DS9 mobile, and have a city ship (maybe USS Nog shaped, maybe a glass pizza, etc.) with a Defiant-style combat escort or two, which would give you a much more plausible arrangement for the sort of thing the Enterprise D was meant to be and do. But that'd probably feel too much like BSG, because we expect a "the ship" in these shows, not a small fleet.)

Edited because I had an "exceeds" where I meant the opposite.
 
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Fero McPigletron

Feel the fear!
Citizen
Ok, saw the return of the mutants I'm Chrysalis. They really need a spin off, dang it. I only fault Jack for dragging broken glass over his watcher's hand in his first ep. It was a sweet story about the catatonic lady but, aw man, I thought their return would be some bombastic save-the-galaxy caper of some significant import to the Dominion War. Oh well. Still, cool to see them again.

The new Dax is cute enough. Jadzia's actress really wanted less scenes in season 7? Aaaaaw but, well, respect her wishes.

The baseball game was ok. Manufactured victory is ok since they would never win again the vulcans.

Also, thanks to you guys for all the info! I keep going through the eps and reach a new point of interest but I appreciate reading all the info about details I miss.

--- Edit

Nog just lost his leg? He can have a replacement, right? This is the future. He can get a new one.
 
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wonko the sane?

You may test that assumption at your convinience.
Citizen
The automation on federation starships makes using it by even one person (as witnessed by dr. crusher.) feasible. But in those cases: it's literally just a taxi. Point A to point B and pray nothing breaks en route. The rest of the crew is there for experience (to both earn it, and benefit others by it.), maintenance, and self betterment. Which leads me to my next point:

Yes, we could have the federations economy here. In fact, we already partly do. This all ties in to the right to repair stuff we talking about. The federation uses an energy based economy, since the replicator allows for the mass manufacture of necessities and "commodities", they don't functionally use money. I'm told there IS a system in the background, which works as a usual cash economy would, but is overtly generous because it isn't being man handled by psychopaths. So long as the federation produces an energy surplus, and keep the replicators running, and building their infrastructure: no one needs to worry about being homeless, being hungry, being sick. The individuals can spend their time mastering whatever job they desire, improving themselves through education, ect ect ect. Hell, we even know they're better people than we are now because there's folks in the trek universe whom WANT the retail jobs, mostly food related though. So, no karens to deal with.

The point being: yes, they could absolutely use the replicator to create "perfected" tools and machines. No user serviceable parts, when broken, please recycle at nearest replicator. They don't though. They still design and implement parts like the end user is intended to open them up, rearrange the guts, and duct tape it back together. But that's what you get when you don't exist in a society that worries more about the value of the intellectual property over how it's used... and when you can trust the population not to abuse the intellectual property. When no one is rushing to generate wealth to ensure they remain above poverty: the population doesn't worry about how to make the quickest buck possible and the corporations (and they do still exist in trek.) honestly don't care about safeguarding the bottom line and only the bottom line. In that state: the population functionally becomes part of the dev team. You give credit where due, and changes made by enterprising nobodies get implemented because the company isn't paying out royalties on circuit designs and software, and the people are literally just after bragging rights; "I made a change that influenced the entire world and beyond".

We already (partially.) have aspects of the federations economy here. The cost of energy is already figured into the everything we buy, and with the rising price of gas among other social, political, and cultural elements, into all the movement we need to do. We don't have replicators though (but aren't 3-d printers really ******* cool?) so we still need conventional resource extraction, refinement, all kinds of shipping. Those costs would go DOWN, a lot, if we generated actual energy surpluses and used more efficient means of energy production instead of burning more expensive elements and just barely creating enough power to cover demand: but again our economy is over seen by psychopaths who don't want the gravy train to stop.
 


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