Well he is supposed to be capable of defeating Data. I hadn’t thought of that angle but that’s a great way to reintroduce Moriarty.
Star Trek: Picard
- Thread starter SHIELD Agent 47
- Start date
That would be awesome, but its something that the writers wouldn't think of. I learned in season 1 that we came up with better stuff here than the writers did.
I know the Romulans would have taken the Defiant (A)'s cloaking device back after the Dominion War, but it was super weird for everyone to be talking about the cloaking device on Kirk's stolen Bird of Prey immediately after talking about the Defiant and not mention it. Even though I think it's technically right that it wouldn't come up. The episode consisted entirely of fandom nods and I feel like I'm complaining that they missed one, but here I am.
I hadn't read the last few posts here before seeing the episode. Now I'm retroactively disappointed Moriarty wasn't the "key". I don't think it's unfair at this point to call him a trailer fakeout. After the reveal, Raffi refers to the Data amalgam as a "sophisticated AI" to make sure we get that that's what the rumor was about, but it doesn't make sense, because no one ever refers to Data as an AI anywhere else (he's very deliberate in always calling himself a synthetic life form and we more or less always saw others follow suit) and the Federation is roundly aware of Soong-type androids, "synths", and the Soong family per the first season of this show. (The fakeout might be forgivable if the reveal was something other than "Brent Spiner is in this season too and he's even older now." If Lore turns out to be just part of Data's identity crisis and doesn't have a plan of his own, then he'll have been a trailer fakeout too. Gotta love Picard gently eliding the fact when he says that he saw Data die, twice, that the second time was very much deliberate on Data's part.)
Why was Seven and Raffi's breakup necessary again? And if for some reason the writers couldn't conceive of a long distance relationship in their offtime at their respective posts, would it really be such a loss of dramatic potential to have had them peaceably go their separate ways? I guess I'd apologize for bringing up Season 2 too, show, fair play.
Cool ships though. What class is the Intrepid? Looked like the ships it met with were a reworked Excelsior and one of the two ships that subsequently show up at Daystrom?
I hadn't read the last few posts here before seeing the episode. Now I'm retroactively disappointed Moriarty wasn't the "key". I don't think it's unfair at this point to call him a trailer fakeout. After the reveal, Raffi refers to the Data amalgam as a "sophisticated AI" to make sure we get that that's what the rumor was about, but it doesn't make sense, because no one ever refers to Data as an AI anywhere else (he's very deliberate in always calling himself a synthetic life form and we more or less always saw others follow suit) and the Federation is roundly aware of Soong-type androids, "synths", and the Soong family per the first season of this show. (The fakeout might be forgivable if the reveal was something other than "Brent Spiner is in this season too and he's even older now." If Lore turns out to be just part of Data's identity crisis and doesn't have a plan of his own, then he'll have been a trailer fakeout too. Gotta love Picard gently eliding the fact when he says that he saw Data die, twice, that the second time was very much deliberate on Data's part.)
Why was Seven and Raffi's breakup necessary again? And if for some reason the writers couldn't conceive of a long distance relationship in their offtime at their respective posts, would it really be such a loss of dramatic potential to have had them peaceably go their separate ways? I guess I'd apologize for bringing up Season 2 too, show, fair play.
Cool ships though. What class is the Intrepid? Looked like the ships it met with were a reworked Excelsior and one of the two ships that subsequently show up at Daystrom?
NOW WE’RE COOKING WITH GAS!
So many awesome nods! Genesis! Kirk’s body! I too was kinda disappointed by Moriarty having little more than a cameo.
The Data thing was so long overdue. They should’ve done in Generations. Be interested to see how it shakes out. I assume we’re going to end up with a Data with a bit harder edge. For the love of God don’t kill him a ******* third time.
Still not entirely clear on the Changelings plan and what role Jack plays in it.
VERY pumped for next week
So many awesome nods! Genesis! Kirk’s body! I too was kinda disappointed by Moriarty having little more than a cameo.
The Data thing was so long overdue. They should’ve done in Generations. Be interested to see how it shakes out. I assume we’re going to end up with a Data with a bit harder edge. For the love of God don’t kill him a ******* third time.
Still not entirely clear on the Changelings plan and what role Jack plays in it.
VERY pumped for next week
I wasn't looking at the screen. I guess Genesis and Kirk's body were things they walked past in the hall?
I assume that they will think we forgot we saw Locutus being screwed together and they're going to tell us that the item was stolen to get Borg nanoprobes. Where is the Season 1 cube now?
I am glad, for my part, that Moriarty was just a cameo. I was having a lot of trouble imagining how he could fit into this in a big role. And the Data fakeout is interesting, if...a microcosm of this whole show. They went to a lot of trouble to send Data "off right" just to bring him back in from the left. I HOPE that in the remaining episodes the personalities will coalesce and that the result will be distinct from Data and choose a brand new name.
It is weird...that Daystrom Institute has been jammed up with Section 31 and stores a museum of horrors. Even just 2 seasons ago, they were the scientific research organization that they had always seemed to be.
I assume that they will think we forgot we saw Locutus being screwed together and they're going to tell us that the item was stolen to get Borg nanoprobes. Where is the Season 1 cube now?
I am glad, for my part, that Moriarty was just a cameo. I was having a lot of trouble imagining how he could fit into this in a big role. And the Data fakeout is interesting, if...a microcosm of this whole show. They went to a lot of trouble to send Data "off right" just to bring him back in from the left. I HOPE that in the remaining episodes the personalities will coalesce and that the result will be distinct from Data and choose a brand new name.
It is weird...that Daystrom Institute has been jammed up with Section 31 and stores a museum of horrors. Even just 2 seasons ago, they were the scientific research organization that they had always seemed to be.
Last edited:
Woot! Picard night! Looking forward to seeing this tonight after the gym!
It appeared to me that the sophisticated security AI was a software thing in the welcome room and the way around it was a chip. The chip they got from the Vulcan thug had no affect on Moriarty who must have somehow been avoided by the Changelings and let the heroes in because he saw them as old friends. Datalore was being used a the manifest computer. So they really didn't think of that.
I was really hoping to see the Enterprise D saucer section or at least the Enterprise E. Maybe they are saving those for another scene in the series finale. It was cool to see the A at least. Maybe NX-01 will show up then too?
It's insane that the Titan is now equipped with the cloaking device from the Bird of Prey from Star Trek IV. I completely forgot about the Defiant having a cloaking device, but I suppose that it would make sense that the Romulans took it back after the war.
As far as the plot goes, I'm a bit confused as to what Moriarty was. Was he something created by B-DataLore to evaluate the intruders? With the deep fanservice this season is giving us, I am going to assume the Changelings want Picard's body in order to reanimate it as Locutus. Perhaps they want to try to control the Borg?
It's insane that the Titan is now equipped with the cloaking device from the Bird of Prey from Star Trek IV. I completely forgot about the Defiant having a cloaking device, but I suppose that it would make sense that the Romulans took it back after the war.
As far as the plot goes, I'm a bit confused as to what Moriarty was. Was he something created by B-DataLore to evaluate the intruders? With the deep fanservice this season is giving us, I am going to assume the Changelings want Picard's body in order to reanimate it as Locutus. Perhaps they want to try to control the Borg?
I really don't think that was recoverable.
Yeah, I guess. At the start they had a Romulan officer to run the thing, but they dropped that pretty soon.
I assumed that Daystrom got hold of the original Moriarty for their collection. I don't think Datalore had any consciousness until Geordi woke him. I don't know about Changelings wanting to someone control the Borg. I just figured on them weaponizing nanites. Actually, some kind of nanite might be what is going on with Jack.... But I lightly object that Picard's body probably shouldn't have any nanites in it. He was not assimilated that way.[/spoiler[
I think we should listen to Riker, who says a bunch of lines that don't make sense at the time.
When Moriarty shows up, he quotes Descartes to emphasize how self-aware he is and then says some other crazy stuff, and Riker says that he doesn't seem like the self-aware Moriarty he remembers, more of a projection. This is distracting because Moriarty has just told us he's self-aware and then shown off the fact that he can't be harmed because he's a holo projection, but Riker isn't talking about either of those things, he's realizing that this Moriarty is just someone's memory of him.
Then they find B-DataLore and Riker hypothesizes that they weren't trying to stop Riker and company at all, and only trying to communicate.
I think Moriarty wasn't substantially different from the raven, in that they were both memories B-DataLore were manifesting, but Moriarty also seems to act as a mouthpiece for B-DataLore when he talks about the unidentifiable Pop Goes the Weasel song haunting him. (Or rather, haunting B-DataLore, because Moriarty never heard the song and frankly just isn't here at all.)
The fact that Moriarty is an advanced AI that Daystrom would have liked to have picked apart is all part of the fakeout, and the charismatic face of Data's bad dream could have just as easily been a manifestation of Troi that time she was cake inside instead. The difference is that we wouldn't be speculating now how Daystrom got their hands on Troi or cake.
When Moriarty shows up, he quotes Descartes to emphasize how self-aware he is and then says some other crazy stuff, and Riker says that he doesn't seem like the self-aware Moriarty he remembers, more of a projection. This is distracting because Moriarty has just told us he's self-aware and then shown off the fact that he can't be harmed because he's a holo projection, but Riker isn't talking about either of those things, he's realizing that this Moriarty is just someone's memory of him.
Then they find B-DataLore and Riker hypothesizes that they weren't trying to stop Riker and company at all, and only trying to communicate.
I think Moriarty wasn't substantially different from the raven, in that they were both memories B-DataLore were manifesting, but Moriarty also seems to act as a mouthpiece for B-DataLore when he talks about the unidentifiable Pop Goes the Weasel song haunting him. (Or rather, haunting B-DataLore, because Moriarty never heard the song and frankly just isn't here at all.)
The fact that Moriarty is an advanced AI that Daystrom would have liked to have picked apart is all part of the fakeout, and the charismatic face of Data's bad dream could have just as easily been a manifestation of Troi that time she was cake inside instead. The difference is that we wouldn't be speculating now how Daystrom got their hands on Troi or cake.
It was prominently missing considering that unlike any of these other ships, we canonically know it was retired to a fleet museum. Odd choice really.
Technology retcons or not, I don't think it's nanoprobes. They want Picard's dead body and his son's live one. There's something else afoot here.
What's crazy is that
the building blocks they are now playing with could make for one hell of a FRANCHISE finale.
Essentially you could in theory have an iconic big bad as the face of the enemy, fighting a team of pretty much every iconic hero ship in franchise history (aside from the Discovery which is in the future, and the TOS Enterprise and original Defiant which were completely destroyed), with core cast members appearing from most of the series.
If Star Trek were to end (which it won't), this is setting up a hell of a way to do it. Do I think any of this will happen? I'd say we could easily see most of it. I don't expect to see any more DS9 cast members or Kirk. I don't even think we will see the Enterprise E. I do think we are going to see Locutus and the Enterprise D though, and that our hero ships are going to fight the networked fleet. I think Shaw's line about hot dropping the D's saucer section on a planet was to remind us that it crashed so that when it returns, we are even more surprised.
- In the Star Trek subreddit, they are positing that somehow Jack (or his blood) will be the key to reviving Picard's body as Locutus, who will be controlled by the Changelings as a hive mind that commands the entire networked Federation fleet.
- Janeway could easily appear. We could feasibly see DS9 cast members appear (besides Worf). Hell, if you read the blurb about Kirk's body, it mentions that his body was retrieved for Project Phoenix..... meaning that since William Shatner is still alive.... KIRK COULD APPEAR!
- If the bad guys from the final battle are a fleet of Federation ships controlled by a hive mind, who are the good guys? The museum ships! Enterprise A, Defiant, Voyager for sure, and very likely NX-01, Excelsior, Enterprise E and the mystery in hangar bay 12.. a fully-restored Enterprise D (with a new stardrive section salvaged from a different decommissioned Galaxy class ship)!
Essentially you could in theory have an iconic big bad as the face of the enemy, fighting a team of pretty much every iconic hero ship in franchise history (aside from the Discovery which is in the future, and the TOS Enterprise and original Defiant which were completely destroyed), with core cast members appearing from most of the series.
If Star Trek were to end (which it won't), this is setting up a hell of a way to do it. Do I think any of this will happen? I'd say we could easily see most of it. I don't expect to see any more DS9 cast members or Kirk. I don't even think we will see the Enterprise E. I do think we are going to see Locutus and the Enterprise D though, and that our hero ships are going to fight the networked fleet. I think Shaw's line about hot dropping the D's saucer section on a planet was to remind us that it crashed so that when it returns, we are even more surprised.
Last edited:
I think I may have cracked their plan
The Changelings want Locutus. That’s why they took Picard’s body. The nanoprobes (or subroutines or whatever) were transferred to Jack when he was born (foreshadowed by the what I inherited from you speech). His visions are the Borg Collective reaching out to him. They’re red which was Locutus’ color. The Changelings in charge of Starfleet are the ones who pushed for all the ships to be interconnected into a Collective (over Geordi’s advice) so Frontier Day they’re going to give NuLocutus an entire Armada made of Federation ships to destroy the Federation.
That's a reasonable guess. But
is there actually something special about Picard's brain that makes Locates worth all of this? I think they originally took him to get his knowledge. Not because he has a super-networkable mind. Why would they not be after Seven who does not have to be revived or Julian Bashir whose mind is actually very remarkable?
The Borg certainly thought so. Of course, that was back when Picard was at the forefront of Starfleet and Captained their flagship. Realistically, even a master of ship based warfare like Nimitz or Halsey would be outclassed if you expected their 1940s brain to fight a naval battle in the 1970’s. On the otherhand, I’m sure Locutus is still responsible for the largest loss of Federation ships in a single battle (with the mental scarring still in the fleet as Shaw showed) so there’s definitely a psychological aspect there as well. I still think the Fleet Day Armada will be doing most of the heavy lifting.
Observations from TrekCulture to tie in to what’s being said:
So Daystrom Station is a certified House of Horrors with Archer, Kirk, and Picard’s body all there. Also, the NX-01 was just barely visible, or at least an NX class with the secondary hall attached to it.
I think the idea of Locutus controlling a hive of ships against the classic Hero ships makes a ton of sense.
I think the idea of Locutus controlling a hive of ships against the classic Hero ships makes a ton of sense.