Star Trek: Picard

[Copper Bezel]

Spoiler

Possible, but I think that like Locutus and Vox, she has a partial individuality too. The part of her that could be lonely and wanted Data or Seven as something more than a drone. More individuality than Locutus had in practice, now that I'm looking at the wiki summary of their conversation in First Contact, a conversation that she picks up from in last week's episode when talking to Jack talking about the failures of Locutus as a project.

Like, this is an extremely superficial observation, but apparently she lost control of her prosthetics in Voyager before she died, and the version we see here has a creepy, Gigeresque body made of blended flesh and nanotech but not a lot of big chunky tech bits. She looks like something that grew back from a puddle.

I really think that while there are Borg somewhere getting along just fine with the new Queen they activated in 2377, the individuality the Queen had had throughout retcon TNG, First Contact, and Voyager was stuck in a dead meat body and had to drag herself back together with whatever equipment she had to do so, and found herself abandoned by the collective at large. So this Queen is no longer the collective, but the embodiment of a personal vendetta, with one ship and the complement of drones that were left on it when Janeway and Voyager escaped. To me that's the best fit for what she tells us in this last episode.

 

[Kalidor]

Well the borg are strange and mysterious so I'm fine with us not being sure about where the Queen begins and the collective ends. I'd also like to think that this does a good job of solidifying the amount of destruction caused by Janeway.

The Borg as we once knew it as a unified collective has long been defeated and this was its last gasp at surviving. I'm glad they kind of ignored the Jurati thing though.

 

[Kalidor]

My favorite part of the finale is when Data flew the Enterprise in and navigated through Discovery's turbolift infrastructure.

 

[Copper Bezel]

Well the borg are strange and mysterious so I'm fine with us not being sure about where the Queen begins and the collective ends. I'd also like to think that this does a good job of solidifying the amount of destruction caused by Janeway.

The Borg as we once knew it as a unified collective has long been defeated and this was its last gasp at surviving. I'm glad they kind of ignored the Jurati thing though.

Oh these are prettier, aren't they?

Good points all I think. And I agree about Jurati - I think that bringing her collective into this conflict would have only diluted things. There are a lot of parties out there in the universe who could have become involved. They kept it simple instead, with only three ships and one mostly anonymous fleet that mattered. A succession of cavalry charges would have made the battle feel like it was "about" too many things at once, instead of each and every character who played a role having a character arc that brought them here and a personal stake in the outcome.

 

[Darth_Prime]

But how badass would a Klingon / Romulan combined fleet against the Federation assimilated fleet have been?

sure hope we get a show based around the people we saw take over the new ship at the end. I think it would be an interesting take.

so I’m confused though. Was the F already scheduled for decommission or just took too much damage to bother fixing? They sure don’t make them like they used too. I think either the OS Enterprise or the D have the longest runs. Maybe B. C and E are out. How old was the Titan at the start of the show?

 

[Echowarrior]

Apparently, the Enterprise-F was already slated for decommissioning after a previous mission, and this was its last hurrah. And I think you have a point - the original NCC-1701 was definitely the longest-lasting (that we can confirm) of ships named Enterprise.

The Big D got to come back from the dead, though.

Also, I am very happy that, Jurati Collective aside, the Borg are effectively off the table. I still think it's a terrible shame that they never found some way to get Denise Crosby involved in this series...though again, I fear their best chance was in the first season, and they lost it. Maybe I can hope for that Legacy series?

 

[Copper Bezel]

so I’m confused though. Was the F already scheduled for decommission or just took too much damage to bother fixing? They sure don’t make them like they used too. I think either the OS Enterprise or the D have the longest runs. Maybe B. C and E are out. How old was the Titan at the start of the show?

Shaw says 20 years. So the Enterprise F and G might have been about the same age. Around 2379, Picard retired, Worf took his command and Riker moved on to his own. The E is eight years old at this time, the D having been lost in 2371. After an unspecified number of years, Worf's ship was destroyed and succeeded by a ship of the same name, and he went into the way of the samurai, which seems to be what he's been doing for the bulk of the 22 years we didn't see. It's now 2401, thirty years after the D was destroyed.

Shaw says the Titan is 20 years old - or at least that its nacelles are. It underwent a radical refit either around the time Shaw took it over from Riker (a few years before 2401) or recently enough to still have new ship smell. This is made somewhat worse by the fact that Riker put off his promotion to the Titan, implying it existed and had a captain before he took the conn. The Titan is actually the Titan-A by its livery, which means it's the successor to a previous ship named the Titan, but it could have already been that when Riker took command of it in the first place because people don't regularly read out registries when casually referring to ships.

My suspicion is that the unremarked upon "-A" was a VFX decision by one of those STO folks to make room for the Luna Class Titan, which was the most famous non-canonical starship in Trek until it appeared in Lower Decks in 2380, commanded by a much younger Riker and Troi straight out of Nemesis. The Luna Class was created to reflect ships of the age and wears that on its sleeve, so it's an aquiline potato like the Intrepid, Sovereign, and Akira classes.

At some point, straight lines, clean surfaces, and round saucers came back into style, which totally had absolutely nothing to do with STO being full of ships designed to evoke past eras while being on-meta in the game's present, and the Neo-Constellation and Neo-Constitution classes of the Stargazer and Titan-A, upscaled and grey echoes of TMP era ships, would have been conceived. The "-A" in no way proves, but implies that this is the Titan of this new generation of ships.

And the "-A" would have worked, if not for Shaw talking about those twenty-year-old warp nacelles, which makes the Titan in some sense at least as old as the destruction of the Enterprise-E. As it stands, there's three possibilities:

• Riker moved to the Titan-A at the same time Worf took over the Enterprise E. The Titan-A is a newer ship than the E. Because of the E's short life of about a decade, the F might be a newer ship than the Titan-A, or a ship of similar age to the E, a decade senior of the Titan-A, that was redubbed.
• Riker moved to the Titan-A at the same time Worf took over the Enterprise E. The Titan-A was the Luna Class Titan we know, slightly older than the E, but was "refit" into an entirely different class (the Neo-Constitution) when Riker left it, and basically the warp coils are the only thing about it that are 20 years old. The F can still be anywhere from the same age as the E to a successor a few years after its destruction, so somewhere in the range of 20-30 years old, but it's immaterial because the Titan-A is essentially brand new.
• Riker moved to the Titan′ at the same time Worf took over the E. They had similar adventures and both ships were destroyed, resulting in the Enterprise-F and the Titan-A being dubbed. The ships could have been of any age, but most likely the Enterprise-F was of similar vintage to the Enterprise-E, and the Titan-A was fresh off the line. As of 2401, the Enterprise-F has been living on security updates and is sunsetting, while the Titan-A has just had a major feature update and should have another decade in her.

Edit: Oh, and respectively, those possibilities would also correspond to "Luna Class Titan never existed," "Luna Class Titan somehow 'is' the Neo-Connie Titan we saw", and "Luna Class Titan existed, but was destroyed."

Edit again: To be clear, I think the last possibility makes the most sense of the "-A" designation and the Titan's implied younger vintage relative to the Enterprise F in the spoiler, and I don't think the second is possible at all. I do think the first possibility, which can still make the Titan-A 20 years old and the Enterprise F 30 without a filler ship presumed to be the Luna class, is plausible. However, the second possibility does amuse me the most, because it stretches the use of "refit" as a Trek meme to explain problems of visual continuity well beyond the breaking point, and because it makes possible the scenario where the Enterprise G, F, and E were originally constructed in that order.

 

[Kalidor]

Neo constitution makes a lot more sense now

 

[Echowarrior]

Shaw says 20 years. So the Enterprise F and G might have been about the same age. Around 2379, Picard retired, Worf took his command and Riker moved on to his own. The E is eight years old at this time, the D having been lost in 2371. After an unspecified number of years, Worf's ship was destroyed and succeeded by a ship of the same name, and he went into the way of the samurai, which seems to be what he's been doing for the bulk of the 22 years we didn't see. It's now 2401, thirty years after the D was destroyed.

Shaw says the Titan is 20 years old - or at least that its nacelles are. It underwent a radical refit either around the time Shaw took it over from Riker (a few years before 2401) or recently enough to still have new ship smell. This is made somewhat worse by the fact that Riker put off his promotion to the Titan, implying it existed and had a captain before he took the conn. The Titan is actually the Titan-A by its livery, which means it's the successor to a previous ship named the Titan, but it could have already been that when Riker took command of it in the first place because people don't regularly read out registries when casually referring to ships.

My suspicion is that the unremarked upon "-A" was a VFX decision by one of those STO folks to make room for the Luna Class Titan, which was the most famous non-canonical starship in Trek until it appeared in Lower Decks in 2380, commanded by a much younger Riker and Troi straight out of Nemesis. The Luna Class was created to reflect ships of the age and wears that on its sleeve, so it's an aquiline potato like the Intrepid, Sovereign, and Akira classes.

At some point, straight lines, clean surfaces, and round saucers came back into style, which totally had absolutely nothing to do with STO being full of ships designed to evoke past eras while being on-meta in the game's present, and the Neo-Constellation and Neo-Constitution classes of the Stargazer and Titan-A, upscaled and grey echoes of TMP era ships, would have been conceived. The "-A" in no way proves, but implies that this is the Titan of this new generation of ships.

And the "-A" would have worked, if not for Shaw talking about those twenty-year-old warp nacelles, which makes the Titan in some sense at least as old as the destruction of the Enterprise-E. As it stands, there's three possibilities:

• Riker moved to the Titan-A at the same time Worf took over the Enterprise E. The Titan-A is a newer ship than the E. Because of the E's short life of about a decade, the F might be a newer ship than the Titan-A, or a ship of similar age to the E, a decade senior of the Titan-A, that was redubbed.
• Riker moved to the Titan-A at the same time Worf took over the Enterprise E. The Titan-A was the Luna Class Titan we know, slightly older than the E, but was "refit" into an entirely different class (the Neo-Constitution) when Riker left it, and basically the warp coils are the only thing about it that are 20 years old. The F can still be anywhere from the same age as the E to a successor a few years after its destruction, so somewhere in the range of 20-30 years old, but it's immaterial because the Titan-A is essentially brand new.
• Riker moved to the Titan′ at the same time Worf took over the E. They had similar adventures and both ships were destroyed, resulting in the Enterprise-F and the Titan-A being dubbed. The ships could have been of any age, but most likely the Enterprise-F was of similar vintage to the Enterprise-E, and the Titan-A was fresh off the line. As of 2401, the Enterprise-F has been living on security updates and is sunsetting, while the Titan-A has just had a major feature update and should have another decade in her.

Edit: Oh, and respectively, those possibilities would also correspond to "Luna Class Titan never existed," "Luna Class Titan somehow 'is' the Neo-Connie Titan we saw", and "Luna Class Titan existed, but was destroyed."

Edit again: To be clear, I think the last possibility makes the most sense of the "-A" designation and the Titan's implied younger vintage relative to the Enterprise F in the spoiler, and I don't think the second is possible at all. I do think the first possibility, which can still make the Titan-A 20 years old and the Enterprise F 30 without a filler ship presumed to be the Luna class, is plausible. However, the second possibility does amuse me the most, because it stretches the use of "refit" as a Trek meme to explain problems of visual continuity well beyond the breaking point, and because it makes possible the scenario where the Enterprise G, F, and E were originally constructed in that order.

I was under the impression that the Titan-A/Enterprise-G was generally a new ship, just one that reused a lot of components from the previous Luna-Class Titan.

 

[Lobjob]

Anybody else "intrigued" by the ammount of star wars invoked by that finale?

 

[G.B.Blackrock]

"Word of God" is that the Luna-class Titan definitely existed, even if you don't want to accept Lower Decks as canon, so we can just stop that speculation about no-Luna-Titan right now.

 

[Darth_Prime]

Well I guess this answers it. Not sure how “official” this page is.

 

[The Predaking]

ok, so first of all, Thank you everyone for not spoiling that finale!



Non spoiler review. Wow! Just freaking wow!

 

[Copper Bezel]

"Word of God" is that the Luna-class Titan definitely existed, even if you don't want to accept Lower Decks as canon, so we can just stop that speculation about no-Luna-Titan right now.

Well I guess this answers it. Not sure how “official” this page is.
View attachment 13605

Welp there we go. Option 2, ship of Theseus. Cool.

(And at no point did I not want to consider LD canon, to be clear. I was just leaving the to-me realistic possibility on the table that Picard was ignoring it. The Luna Class Titan is canon, but if Picard contradicted that, I'd call it a contradiction rather than headcanon my own fix.)

 

[TheSupernova]

My thoughts are all scattered. I really could use a second watch to get them organized, but...

More than anything, seeing the Enterprise-D and the bridge crew all back together to save the day sure did feel good. As someone that sometimes wishes we never saw anything past All Good Things... , this is the ending that I wanted for them. Together. Happy. Family. Gave me all the feels. If there's anything that I take away from this season, it's this.

The fact that this will likely be the last time they're all on screen together is certainly bittersweet. But, at least they got that chance. DS9 will never get that, and that hurts.

I'm also happy that it was the power of love, and family that helped win the day.

Kinda wish that Seven and the remnants of the crew on the Titan had gotten more to do. I wonder if it would have been better for them to run interference on the cube at Jupiter instead, as the strafing runs against the fleet didn't seem to achieve a whole lot.

Walter Koenig cameo! Yay! Tuvok's not dead! Yay! Poor Titan transporter chief, though. Not one of the lucky ones.

Shaw really needed a better redemption arc. All the pieces were there, but I don't think they were placed well. Todd Stashwick absolutely was stellar in the role, just to be clear.

Beverly totally wrecking the Borg defenses was fantastic. Heck, I really liked how everyone had a chance to shine. Was it Deanna that drifted the ship in for the rescue as the Queen's chamber was exploding?

Not a big fan of the Titan re-christening to be the Enterprise-G. I would have been okay with the USS Picard (or keeping it as is!), but the Neo-Con doesn't give me "flagship" vibes. I don't have any problem with Seven and Raffi being the commanding officers, though. I'm sure an actual series would give Jack an actual position besides advisor. All the pieces are there for a decent 25th century series, should it happen.

Oh, hey, Q! I really don't need to go back and finish season two, now! Ha ha ha!

So, say, if the Borg plan had worked, would they and the Changelings have gone their separate ways? I wasn't sure what the endgame was for Vadic's faction. Also, wouldn't it have been smarter to play the long game and run similar infiltration missions through all of the major Alpha Quadrant powers?

Did Picard ever catch up with Laris?



I'll still stand behind my overall feelings in that this was a problematic season that used nostalgia to incredible effect.

 

[The Predaking]

So my spoiler review:

Spoiler

So we start off, where we left off. Earth is getting pounded by the assimilated fleet, our TNG cast is on the way in the Enterprise D, and Spacedock 2 is in for the fight of its life protecting earth.

I loved the President Anton Chekov speech! So awesome and I was shocked as all get out that they got him to come back for that cameo.

Picard's speech about the last 35 years ending tonight was epic!!!!

Worf: "Then I will make it a threesome."
Riker: "Do you even hear yourself?"

"We need to take out the Borg weapons." Beverly destroys the entire front of the cube. Everyone stops and turns to quietly stare at her. "Its been a rough 20 years".

Loved Data making the ROTJ run through the cube, as seeing the ship actually navigate/dodge/ and turn was great!

Decomposing Borg was a great touch. Showing how much damage that they received at the end of Voyager and how the Queen was barely holding on was great. I liked that they didn't downplay that nor Admiral Janeway's sacrifice.

Seven that the remenats of the titan crew retaking the bridge was awesome! I love how Seven had a modified weapon that teleports people away! It would be like something that she would come up with like the Imod rifle. "I am just a cook!"

Jack in borg armor was cool. Loved that Worf sword too heavy for Riker to even hold two handed. I did love that they remembered how good of a shot Riker is and lets him just one-two the drones. I also loved Worf's line about I was starting to worry that we might survive this.

Picard going back into the collective to get his son, great move! His conversation with his son is so great and genuine that it really hits home for Jack. Loved that Will's love for Troi is like a beacon here. His last words had me tearing up.

Tuvok and all the other replaced officers were found alive! Woot! The real Tuvok giving Seven her promotion to captain was great! Shaw's recorded review of her was great, and that was before we even started this season.

Worf leaks Rafi top secret accommodations and Rafi finally gets the credit that she has earned over the last few years and her family openly and eagerly welcomes her home.

So a year later, and a fast tracked Ensign Crusher is getting his first assignment. He is being taken by his dad, Admiral Picard and his mom admiral crusher head of Starfleet Medical yet again, who has found a way to screen for the new changlings as well as remove the Borg brain modifications. They see its the Titan, but no, its been renamed into the Enterprise-G!

While I am miffed that we didn't get much time with the Enterprise F, and I like that the Titan was a great ship on it own, Its a cool change. Maybe that will lead to an new Enterprise series with the crew of the Enterprise G. I too was a bit confused as to why Jack didn't have a assigned station yet, and why Seven would put him in a Nepotistic spot as councilor when he is just an Ensign. Loved Crash's response of always ignoring what Jack says. I am still hopeful for them as a couple.


The Bar scene was great, and I loved that they went out on a poker game again just like they did in All good things. I wished that Whoopie could have been there instead of just mentioned off screen.


That end credits scene though. I lost my dang mind! Q was back! THE TRIAL NEVER ENDS!

I think I can speak for the rest of us Trekkies and say, WE NEED STAR TREK LEGACY GREEN LIT NOW!

 

[The Predaking]

My thoughts are all scattered. I really could use a second watch to get them organized, but...


Did Picard ever catch up with Laris?


I'll still stand behind my overall feelings in that this was a problematic season that used nostalgia to incredible effect.

Spoiler

Sadly not

 

[Copper Bezel]

More than anything, seeing the Enterprise-D and the bridge crew all back together to save the day sure did feel good. As someone that sometimes wishes we never saw anything past All Good Things... , this is the ending that I wanted for them. Together. Happy. Family. Gave me all the feels. If there's anything that I take away from this season, it's this.

The fact that this will likely be the last time they're all on screen together is certainly bittersweet. But, at least they got that chance. DS9 will never get that, and that hurts.

This is that epilogue scene at the end of the last Harry Potter book if Rowling had spent another novel or two earning it. The idea that everyone retires content in their legacies and we see them pass the torch to the next generation is so much sap that I can't imagine how any series can earn the privilege of doing so without making me gag, and yet they did it, fully earned.

I'm also happy that it was the power of love, and family that helped win the day.

Second season in a row for Picard that the main conflict was resolved with a hug - but again, this time it was earned. I didn't cry but it felt like a good moment for it.

Kinda wish that Seven and the remnants of the crew on the Titan had gotten more to do. I wonder if it would have been better for them to run interference on the cube at Jupiter instead, as the strafing runs against the fleet didn't seem to achieve a whole lot.

I knew there was going to be a shooty-fly distraction but I didn't expect it to be the Titan. I think they did exactly what they were supposed to do and kept the Queen's and Vox's attentions divided, but I can see what you mean. The split also set up the Enterprise G crew and let the D crew go do their thing, which I think was the main impetus.

Beverly totally wrecking the Borg defenses was fantastic. Heck, I really liked how everyone had a chance to shine. Was it Deanna that drifted the ship in for the rescue as the Queen's chamber was exploding?

No, Data was still at the helm and they still aren't going to let Deanna drive the D again. What she did was locate them based on her emotional bond to Riker. But it seemed very deliberate that everyone got a chance to shine and especially Deanna and Crusher weren't flopping around helpless in a crisis like TNG sometimes did to them.

Spoiler

Decomposing Borg was a great touch. Showing how much damage that they received at the end of Voyager and how the Queen was barely holding on was great. I liked that they didn't downplay that nor Admiral Janeway's sacrifice.

And it made the whole conflict feel a lot more plausible. Both the Borg and the changelings were a scrap of leftovers from their respective wars. In many respects this was actually a much smaller threat overall than previous seasons' universe-enders and felt like a conflict of manageable scale. And I think that in a way this is the best treatment of the Borg since the original too - they were scary and adaptable in their earliest appearances and neither of those things really carried over into First Contact and Voyager, so seeing them do something new and having this corpse ship and Gigerized queen while carrying out this creeping covert infection really tapped into something IMO.

I think I can speak for the rest of us Trekkies and say, WE NEED STAR TREK LEGACY GREEN LIT NOW!

Hundo P.

Re: Laris

Spoiler

Sadly not

It's odd that we didn't get a followup there, they were super selective with those. Or at least some dialogue in the Crusher / Picard / Crusher scene returning to the Titan/G. Almost like they left it open for the shippers whether Picard followed up with Laris or got back together with Crusher.

Spoiler

Worf leaks Rafi top secret accommodations and Rafi finally gets the credit that she has earned over the last few years and her family openly and eagerly welcomes her home.

This though, they could have easily forgotten and I'm really glad they followed it up. Almost but not quite justifies the beating she took at the start of the season.

 

[Copper Bezel]

Oh, right!

So, say, if the Borg plan had worked, would they and the Changelings have gone their separate ways? I wasn't sure what the endgame was for Vadic's faction. Also, wouldn't it have been smarter to play the long game and run similar infiltration missions through all of the major Alpha Quadrant powers?

This is entirely just my take on it, but I think Vadic's changelings only wanted revenge. "Tick tick tock goes the ancient clock." They had a reduced lifespan, most of them by choice, and may or may not have been allowed to reenter the Great Link if they had means to get there, while the Founders at large didn't care what happened in the Alpha quadrant or have interest in revenge. For Vadic's people, the Federation just needed to die.

For the Borg though ... I'm not sure to what extent there are major Alpha Quadrant powers. Everything used to be a cold war between the Federation and the Romulans, with the Cardassians having a nasty empire that was powerful enough that the Federation had to negotiate with them, and of course the Klingon empire. With Romulan and Cardassian power basically off the table, the Queen might have felt that taking the Federation's collective military in its entirety would be enough. And she could do that with the force of changelings she had on hand, who themselves didn't have any reason to help her take out the Klingons etc.

 

[TheSupernova]

Plus the Queen she might not have had the resources to wait much longer, given her physical state and the state of the various drones that Riker and Worf came across. It probably made sense to go after the biggest target, and the one that she had the personal vendetta with.

Tangent time: What would the in-universe explanation be for the "super generic male bad guy voice" she used to communicate with Vadic? I mean, from a production standpoint, it was to maintain an element of surprise to the viewer, but seems odd within the show itself. Pretty sure everyone knew who was who.