Star Trek: Picard

Kalidor

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Yeah. The only reason stardates existed was to create the idea that it was some undisclosed distant future. Everything about tos revolved around the premise of it being a fantastical space adventure where the humans of united earth set forth.

Like you said, tmp and twok reset the entire premise and moved from a scifantasy concept to a more grounded premise.

The first season of tng seemed to be an attempt to return to the fantastic but by the end of season 2 it went down the path of politics and intrigue, veering away from man vs nature and into the man vs man that culminated in what we have today

All this stuff I'm just coming up with off the top of my head but I wonder if those specific concepts have ever been deeply explored
 

Kup

Active member
Citizen
New Jersey is one now! X ]

Edit: The above sentence no longer makes any sense, there was a post in between once.
The post was mine, I was typing it on my phone and mid sentence I had to stop and start driving. However, as I put my phone away I posted it accidentally. When we got to our next stop, I realized my incomplete post was live and deleted it. At that time, my phone hadn’t shown any replies (it was like a 5 min drive) so I didn’t think anyone had saw it. Sorry about that.

To be clear I wasn’t texting while driving. Was waiting for my wife in the parking lot.
 

Kalidor

Supreme System Overlord
Staff member
Council of Elders
Citizen
The post was mine, I was typing it on my phone and mid sentence I had to stop and start driving. However, as I put my phone away I posted it accidentally. When we got to our next stop, I realized my incomplete post was live and deleted it. At that time, my phone hadn’t shown any replies (it was like a 5 min drive) so I didn’t think anyone had saw it. Sorry about that.

To be clear I wasn’t texting while driving. Was waiting for my wife in the parking lot.
To answer your original question, this article seems to break it down pretty well.

8 were canonically shown on screen. And going on the assumption that anything that was called a "starship" at the time was the same class (Constitution) then a few more were named but not shown on screen.

 

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
And no worries, sorry about that myself!

Yeah. The only reason stardates existed was to create the idea that it was some undisclosed distant future. Everything about tos revolved around the premise of it being a fantastical space adventure where the humans of united earth set forth.

Like you said, tmp and twok reset the entire premise and moved from a scifantasy concept to a more grounded premise.

The first season of tng seemed to be an attempt to return to the fantastic but by the end of season 2 it went down the path of politics and intrigue, veering away from man vs nature and into the man vs man that culminated in what we have today

All this stuff I'm just coming up with off the top of my head but I wonder if those specific concepts have ever been deeply explored
That really would be fascinating. I haven't read the novelization of TMP by Roddenberry, but Jessie Gender did a video once that dived into it a bit to talk about the difference between the Starfleet that Roddenberry envisioned at the time and the version that actually made it into canon as later materials built it up. I've also seen some discussion of the original Star Wars movie in that vein of partitioning off the later canon and considering just what the original movie actually implied all by itself about a variety of things. Would be fascinating to see with TOS.
 

Kup

Active member
Citizen
To answer your original question, this article seems to break it down pretty well.

8 were canonically shown on screen. And going on the assumption that anything that was called a "starship" at the time was the same class (Constitution) then a few more were named but not shown on screen.

That was the missing part of my post. Was going to say “I could look it up but we’re out and about today so I’m being lazy and just asking the question…”
 

Axaday

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Citizen
Some novel I read, probably the Romulan War ones, said that when the Federation originally went together the humans primarily took over the exploration ships, the Vulcans the science ships, the Tellarites the supply ships, and the Andorians the defense of the border ships. It is a clever explanation of why Starfleet continued to be dominated by humans. We've often scene Vulcan science vessels. We've probably had no reason to see the Tellarite fleet. The only glaring thing is that we've never really seen an Andorian dominated military fleet.
 

Dekafox

Fabulously Foxy Dragon
Citizen
That was one reason I was hoping they'd at least referance Shon, even if they weren't going to put him in the big seat of the E-F for this. Ah well.
 

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
So, there's one bit of fridge logic I haven't been able to get over, and I wondered if anyone might have any thoughts. Most little plot snags or inconsistencies this season are pretty easy to handwave or ignore, and I at least understand why most of the threads left loose didn't get the attention to be tied up. And anything to do with character motivations or whatnot falls into the realm of being either subjective, necessary for the story they wanted to tell, or both.

There's just one missing link in the plot that seems like a weird omission, and I think I know why it was left unsolved: there's no explanation of how Vadic got into contact with the Borg Queen and what kind of deal they actually struck. For the plot revelations and mystery to unroll themselves the way they do, Vadic can't explain anything about the Borg, because she dies before they're revealed to the audience. But it looks like the powers had a sequence of events in mind, and I'm trying to tease out whether there's one that makes sense.

This is absurdly long but I hope it's organized reasonably well for anyone who might be as interested in the question as me.

Queen Stuff:

The first time we see Vadic interact with the then unknown Borg Queen, the Queen is clearly in control of this relationship, so it would seem like a good provisional guess that the Queen originally contacted Vadic. When the Queen describes her situation to Picard, she says it was sensing Jack that caused her to come back to the Alpha Quadrant, and this happened after she had not only been left in deep space to die with no resources, but also already consumed all of her remaining drones and been left as a singular entity. The last we saw of the Queen, Admiral Janeway killed her with a virus that caused her technological components and the technology of the Borg city around her to fail within the Unicomplex; meanwhile, Voyager destroyed the transwarp hub, or at least one of the transwarp hubs, that connected said Unicomplex with the rest of the Borg. I'd have to guess that the Unicomplex was a) positioned somewhere remote that could only be accessed by transwarp, specifically via the destroyed hub and b) was itself almost entirely destroyed by the virus, so that it had become the kind of space desert the Queen referred to in her chat with Picard. That would reconcile what the Queen said with what we previously saw.

Then, we have to assume that the Queen resurrected herself somehow, cannibalized what she could of the Unicompex and the many cubes and drones left there, constructed the giant cube full of dead Borg we see in Picard, limped back to the nearest transwarp conduit she could use, and before she'd attempted to rebuild her forces, heard Jack's signal and began actively calling to him. So in theory, she could have successfully convinced Jack to steal a shuttle and come to the nearest transwarp conduit at any time over the past several years, but it turned out to happen in the finale of the season right before she really needed him to make her plan work. His timing isn't something we need to work out.

The Queen doesn't talk about Vadic and the other changelings. Is it safe to assume that their spy network to destroy the Federation was already in place by the time they came in contact with the Borg? I don't understand how the Queen could have built the supercube and its giant transceiver purposefully as a part of this plan, but not stocked up on resources like not-dead drones in the process. It seems a lot more likely to me that she pieced together a collective that built the cube out of the remains of the Unicomplex, and then the drones died in the process of building it and in transit afterward. Then she built a plan around the supercube, not the other way around.

I wonder if reading that Hive series Matalas wrote would help connect some dots? Has anyone read it?

Vadic Stuff:

We don't know how many spies were actually inside Starfleet, but we're told that the Great Link at least knew about them, because Odo told Worf about them from there, and there were as many subordinates on Vadic's ship as there were vials in the Daystrom lab. That implies to me that the bulk of the spies inside Starfleet and elsewhere had joined Vadic from elsewhere, possibly traveling from the gamma quadrant to do so. I'd bet that Vadic herself was one of the Hundred Changelings and doesn't have any Founder philosophy, which is why she's comfortable killing other changelings, etc. and had a changeling crew, presumably the others from Daystrom, instead of employing some "lesser" beings like the Jem'Hadar to do her wetwork.

But the spy network proper could be of any size; any changeling convinced to join the cause would only have to link with an existing superspy to gain their powers, so they could be all over the quadrant and beyond. Suffice to say they could have known damn near anything, with one exception: no one told them how Picard's Borg brain tumor worked, because we know they had to cut it out and dissect it after they stole the body, in the weeks or months before the beginning of the season, and then isolate the DNA responsible to program it into the transporters.

It's possible that Vadic didn't know who she was working for when she planned to get Picard's Borg genes. It's possible that the Queen no longer had access to the genetic sequence she'd implanted in Picard after losing the bulk of the Collective, and it's even possible she still had it, but had Vadic steal it anyway to create plausible deniability about who she was. What is less possible is that Vadic would have proactively stolen Picard's body and dissected his brain without being told what she'd find in there - she really needs to have been in contact with the Queen before planning the theft. [Edit: Or rather, in that case, she needs to have at least known about the Queen and the function of the brain bits.]

But like, how in the galaxy did they meet up? The Queen seems to be accessed exclusively by transwarp and only taking calls via brain tumor. Did someone from Vadic's network find and contact the Queen in her big dead cube kicking around in a nebula in the Delta Quadrant somewhere?

Vadic's Funky Hand Puppet Trick:

Thing is, the way Vadic and the Queen communicate as of the beginning of the season, some time after the changelings have stolen Picard's body and reverse engineered it, is through using part of her body as a biological receiver that the Queen can communicate with, and one that the Queen is in complete control of and can use to torture Vadic Unicron-style if she disobeys. That sounds an awful lot like Vadic herself has Picard's Borg receiver genes. (I know Crusher says the dead changeling has no genetic material, but she also says speciation is different from evolution and we know changelings are vulnerable to viruses, which notably require genetics to work, so she can be safely ignored.) Like ... if it's not Picard's genes, then it's a pretty wild unexplained plot device in its own right. (I don't remember goomunication being a thing in DS9, but it's been a while since I saw it, am I forgetting something?)

So ... did the Queen initally contact Vadic by some other means, and then just talk her into assimilating herself? 🤔(And does Vadic use her internal organ no jutsu mojo to make a Picard brain tumor in her hand when she does that funky summoning ritual, or is it on all the time?) If anything like that is going on, it doesn't seem plausible to me that the Queen is hiding her identity from Vadic (or that the need to steal Picard's body was a trick).

Alternately, did Vadic steal Picard's body on her own initiative and without being contacted, knowing that it contained a way to contact the Borg, and only ring up the Queen a week before the beginning of the series, conveniently just in time for them to plan the Frontier Day attack?

I feel like one of the big questions in the big mystery plot was how BBEG had Vadic under their thumb and planted her with whatever bio-technology she was using to communicate with them. It doesn't seem any clearer to me now than it did in the beginning.

So Yeah:

I know it's entirely possible we were just meant to roll with all of this, and if it's all meant to be handwaves I'm only sort of interested in inventing a possible sequence of events that explains everything. I just felt this season seemed to be more carefully plotted out than usual - most of the stuff that didn't add up or seemed forced, I can see what they were thinking and why they did it that way. So I'm really curious if anyone felt there was a clear implied sequence of events, and I'm missing the key that makes everything really obvious. I feel like there was probably an idea in there of how everything came together, whether I'm just missing it, or it ended up being unclear as told but still works out underneath. If not, it's still fun to think about. = ]
 
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Axaday

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Citizen
Queen Stuff:

The first time we see Vadic interact with the then unknown Borg Queen, the Queen is clearly in control of this relationship, so it would seem like a good provisional guess that the Queen originally contacted Vadic. When the Queen describes her situation to Picard, she says it was sensing Jack that caused her to come back to the Alpha Quadrant, and this happened after she had not only been left in deep space to die with no resources, but also already consumed all of her remaining drones and been left as a singular entity. The last we saw of the Queen, Admiral Janeway killed her with a virus that caused her technological components and the technology of the Borg city around her to fail within the Unicomplex; meanwhile, Voyager destroyed the transwarp hub, or at least one of the transwarp hubs, that connected said Unicomplex with the rest of the Borg. I'd have to guess that the Unicomplex was a) positioned somewhere remote that could only be accessed by transwarp, specifically via the destroyed hub and b) was itself almost entirely destroyed by the virus, so that it had become the kind of space desert the Queen referred to in her chat with Picard. That would reconcile what the Queen said with what we previously saw.

Then, we have to assume that the Queen resurrected herself somehow, cannibalized what she could of the Unicompex and the many cubes and drones left there, constructed the giant cube full of dead Borg we see in Picard, limped back to the nearest transwarp conduit she could use, and before she'd attempted to rebuild her forces, heard Jack's signal and began actively calling to him. So in theory, she could have successfully convinced Jack to steal a shuttle and come to the nearest transwarp conduit at any time over the past several years, but it turned out to happen in the finale of the season right before she really needed him to make her plan work. His timing isn't something we need to work out.

The Queen doesn't talk about Vadic and the other changelings. Is it safe to assume that their spy network to destroy the Federation was already in place by the time they came in contact with the Borg? I don't understand how the Queen could have built the supercube and its giant transceiver purposefully as a part of this plan, but not stocked up on resources like not-dead drones in the process. It seems a lot more likely to me that she pieced together a collective that built the cube out of the remains of the Unicomplex, and then the drones died in the process of building it and in transit afterward. Then she built a plan around the supercube, not the other way around.

I wonder if reading that Hive series Matalas wrote would help connect some dots? Has anyone read it?

Is the "supercube" bigger than a normal cube? I didn't form that impression, but I guess as big as a cube normally is, it doesn't take long to fly the distance from the outer edge to the core. I'm not SURE the writers care about that though.

I still think you are thinking too 3D. This queen was not in the Unimatrix when it blew up. That queen was thoroughly obliterated. The Borg have made a new queen several times. Seven became a queen for a day in Season 1. This queen was made on this ship after it lost contact with the rest of the collective. The ship was probably close by already, but probably not sunk in Jupiter.


Vadic Stuff:

We don't know how many spies were actually inside Starfleet, but we're told that the Great Link at least knew about them, because Odo told Worf about them from there, and there were as many subordinates on Vadic's ship as there were vials in the Daystrom lab. That implies to me that the bulk of the spies inside Starfleet and elsewhere had joined Vadic from elsewhere, possibly traveling from the gamma quadrant to do so. I'd bet that Vadic herself was one of the Hundred Changelings and doesn't have any Founder philosophy, which is why she's comfortable killing other changelings, etc. and had a changeling crew, presumably the others from Daystrom, instead of employing some "lesser" beings like the Jem'Hadar to do her wetwork.

But the spy network proper could be of any size; any changeling convinced to join the cause would only have to link with an existing superspy to gain their powers, so they could be all over the quadrant and beyond. Suffice to say they could have known damn near anything, with one exception: no one told them how Picard's Borg brain tumor worked, because we know they had to cut it out and dissect it after they stole the body, in the weeks or months before the beginning of the season, and then isolate the DNA responsible to program it into the transporters.

It's possible that Vadic didn't know who she was working for when she planned to get Picard's Borg genes. It's possible that the Queen no longer had access to the genetic sequence she'd implanted in Picard after losing the bulk of the Collective, and it's even possible she still had it, but had Vadic steal it anyway to create plausible deniability about who she was. What is less possible is that Vadic would have proactively stolen Picard's body and dissected his brain without being told what she'd find in there - she really needs to have been in contact with the Queen before planning the theft. [Edit: Or rather, in that case, she needs to have at least known about the Queen and the function of the brain bits.]

But like, how in the galaxy did they meet up? The Queen seems to be accessed exclusively by transwarp and only taking calls via brain tumor. Did someone from Vadic's network find and contact the Queen in her big dead cube kicking around in a nebula in the Delta Quadrant somewhere?

The Queen was sunk in Jupiter. You can get there without transwarp. I have never been there, though.

I think the analysis of Vadic is pretty much correct. How they met up, I think was dropped because while this was good Star Trek: Picard, it was still Star Trek: Picard. No time to explain. We just needed this twist to get the ending we wanted.

Vadic's Funky Hand Puppet Trick:

Thing is, the way Vadic and the Queen communicate as of the beginning of the season, some time after the changelings have stolen Picard's body and reverse engineered it, is through using part of her body as a biological receiver that the Queen can communicate with, and one that the Queen is in complete control of and can use to torture Vadic Unicron-style if she disobeys. That sounds an awful lot like Vadic herself has Picard's Borg receiver genes. (I know Crusher says the dead changeling has no genetic material, but she also says speciation is different from evolution and we know changelings are vulnerable to viruses, which notably require genetics to work, so she can be safely ignored.) Like ... if it's not Picard's genes, then it's a pretty wild unexplained plot device in its own right. (I don't remember goomunication being a thing in DS9, but it's been a while since I saw it, am I forgetting something?)

So ... did the Queen initally contact Vadic by some other means, and then just talk her into assimilating herself? 🤔(And does Vadic use her internal organ no jutsu mojo to make a Picard brain tumor in her hand when she does that funky summoning ritual, or is it on all the time?) If anything like that is going on, it doesn't seem plausible to me that the Queen is hiding her identity from Vadic (or that the need to steal Picard's body was a trick).

Alternately, did Vadic steal Picard's body on her own initiative and without being contacted, knowing that it contained a way to contact the Borg, and only ring up the Queen a week before the beginning of the series, conveniently just in time for them to plan the Frontier Day attack?

I feel like one of the big questions in the big mystery plot was how BBEG had Vadic under their thumb and planted her with whatever bio-technology she was using to communicate with them. It doesn't seem any clearer to me now than it did in the beginning.

So Yeah:

I know it's entirely possible we were just meant to roll with all of this, and if it's all meant to be handwaves I'm only sort of interested in inventing a possible sequence of events that explains everything. I just felt this season seemed to be more carefully plotted out than usual - most of the stuff that didn't add up or seemed forced, I can see what they were thinking and why they did it that way. So I'm really curious if anyone felt there was a clear implied sequence of events, and I'm missing the key that makes everything really obvious. I feel like there was probably an idea in there of how everything came together, whether I'm just missing it, or it ended up being unclear as told but still works out underneath. If not, it's still fun to think about. = ]

Yeah, this is just plot contrivance to hide the surprise ending. It will never be explained. It is inductive plot contrivance.
 

Cybersnark

Well-known member
Citizen
OTOH, these are the hooks that tie-in fiction is built on. I'm sure Christopher Bennett, David Mack, and Keith DeCandido are already throwing ideas around.
 

MrBlud

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Citizen
It would’ve made more sense (and probably been cheaper) just have the hand make a Vadic face for Vadic to converse with instead of Melty Face Guy since that’s the default shape for her now.

That way you aren’t making up a new character *solely* for a plot contrivance.
 

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
Yeah, that would have been a neat save. Like the melty face kinda roughly looks like the deformed Borg Queen but it's still a completely made up voice. Anything that would have made those scenes better would risk giving away the surprise, but Plummer playing Krige's mannerisms would have been aces.

Nothing Worf or Ro says makes sense while they're on by anonymous teletype and Worf keeps it a secret from Raffi who his handler is until he just answers the phone with Raffi in the room for no reason once we've found out, so I guess I can't expect any identity reveal to make sense retrospectively. 😣 Except for those intentional hints about not being tied to a "single flesh".

Is the "supercube" bigger than a normal cube? I didn't form that impression, but I guess as big as a cube normally is, it doesn't take long to fly the distance from the outer edge to the core. I'm not SURE the writers care about that though.
It was massively bigger, yeah. Several times the dimensions relative to the Fat One seen in TNG, or extrapolated from the size of cubes in Voyager and the one in First Contact. You could fit a lot of Enterprise Ds inside a Borg cube as previously scaled, but you couldn't fly it inside one. Borg cubes have always been, for comparison, smaller than Space Dock, just a few fat saucers wide.

You may be right that the writers just don't care. I feel like the beacon presenting itself as gigantic spires sticking out of the cube is more visible than the size and would hint that there's a difference with this cube that requires explanation, but that's probably just two oversimplified visual storytelling elements having a fight with each other.

I still think you are thinking too 3D. This queen was not in the Unimatrix when it blew up. That queen was thoroughly obliterated. The Borg have made a new queen several times. Seven became a queen for a day in Season 1. This queen was made on this ship after it lost contact with the rest of the collective. The ship was probably close by already, but probably not sunk in Jupiter.
I think my frustration is that her dialogue with Jack and Picard doesn't make any sense. There's a lot of information I want from her but she's too busy doing the creepy evil mother figure thing to give it.

You're completely right. If some isolated drones that managed to transport over on to the Enterprise in First Contact could build and activate a Queen when they needed one, and I think that's probably what happened there, then a randomly isolated cube could do the same. Kinda kills any sense of finality to defeating her that we could otherwise imagine, though. I mean take it for granted that she's always going to be on hand to resurrect as a villain, it'd be nice if killing the Queen here was at least temporarily actually destroying her. But there could be a dozen of them out there stranded in different locations and every one of them has a slightly different vendetta against Picard and it just kinda sucks narratively.

And I still don't know why she talks to Picard like he personally stranded her (or the cube that activated her) in the first place. We as the audience don't know about any of this, so why isn't there some attempt to connect the dots from Voyager to here instead? It's like this is all based on a novel somewhere we haven't read.

The Queen was sunk in Jupiter. You can get there without transwarp. I have never been there, though.
Okay. Riker inferred that she got there by transwarp, and I assumed he meant after Jack got jacked, and not a decade ago or something. Jack did spend some time on Earth, maybe the first time she noticed his transmissions was while he was in school for his British accent. It's actually kinda hilarious if she was hiding there the whole time, and when someone from Starfleet finally noticed, the changelings covered it up. There's conspiracy theorists on Earth who've heard of scientists getting murdered in their sleep when they try to speak out about the Borg cube hiding in Jupiter's spot, and it's all completely true....

OTOH, these are the hooks that tie-in fiction is built on. I'm sure Christopher Bennett, David Mack, and Keith DeCandido are already throwing ideas around.
I both can appreciate and also do hate that. Like, I'm imagining better monologues in the shower myself. The trouble is that those fictions won't make this show better, the hooks aren't big enough to interest me in reading said fiction, and at best I'm just going to end up knowing more fully what all the missed opportunities really were.

One thing I've been thinking about is how cool it would have been if Vadic's people were banished from returning to the Great Link because Vadic's condition is considered a disease, so she's been rejected by the people she's suffering for and all that. Having her further modifying herself to try to bring the Borg in and then getting bit by the consequences would have really added to the personal stakes for her and how desperate she was in all of this. Maybe it's just me (and maybe not everyone felt that Vadic was the best thing about this show) but I would have loved to see more of that.
 

Kup

Active member
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I took it as this is all that was left of the Queen *and* Collective after Endgame, that the cube was a Borg super cube made up of whatever was left of connected Borg ships, and that her “program” could only go so far on generating a body (hence her Alien-ish vibe). Would also explain turn Artifact — it was a disconnected cube without access to the Queen Matrix.

Wish the name Saladin or whatever the original Queen’s name was from Destiny. That soils have been a nice acknowledgment of the relaunches without diving too deep into the lore.
 

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
I took it as this is all that was left of the Queen *and* Collective after Endgame, that the cube was a Borg super cube made up of whatever was left of connected Borg ships, and that her “program” could only go so far on generating a body (hence her Alien-ish vibe). Would also explain turn Artifact — it was a disconnected cube without access to the Queen Matrix.
Yeah, unless there are clues in licensed fiction somewhere that I don't know about, this still feels like it's the most likely thing the writers were going for, with the caveat that as Axaday says it's not really the simplest explanation in-universe and requires more assumptions.

The "Artifact" (why on earth is it not called the "Derelict", it still grates on me) already has the explanation that it went crazy and separated itself from the collective when it assimilated the Zhat Vash, but its mere existence throws a big spanner in the works for S3. "No one has seen or heard from the Borg in over a decade" per Crusher, with the exception of "that weird jive on the Stargazer" per Shaw. Over a decade is probably a good match for the Artifact, but Endgame was twenty-five years ago. Maybe the Artifact was already separated from the rest of the collective, as was every other Borg cube out in the galaxy, but it was still up to its usual trying to assimilate people until it ate something disagreeable.

I guess taking those two things together would mean there could be other isolated cubes still out there, but also they can't make a new Queen for reasons.
 

Axaday

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I think Matalas' intention is that this is the last gasp of the Borg, but he didn't hammer it down, either out of sloppiness or (I hope) out of self-awareness. His show is done and maybe he will get another. But Star Trek is bigger than him and other people need room to move. When (not if) someone else wants to use the Borg, nothing in this series contradicted that the Borg had a setback and recovered long ago in the Delta Quadrant have the capacities of timelessness and patience and are leaving this oddly organized section of the galaxy alone until they can figure out how to deal with them. Meanwhile the Artifact was just a single cube out exploring and learning stuff and the SuperCube was an independent operation of some Borg that got accidentally cut off. I don't even remember what the Queen said about how they got in that situation. It seemed vague to me, perfectly ripe for a Voyager-finale interpretation, but not relying on it.
 

Darth_Prime

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I think for now we are done with the Borg. I think it would be interesting to see a new version of them but more on par with Starfleet capability, kind of them reassimilating and rebuilding their society.
 

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
I think Matalas' intention is that this is the last gasp of the Borg, but he didn't hammer it down, either out of sloppiness or (I hope) out of self-awareness. His show is done and maybe he will get another. But Star Trek is bigger than him and other people need room to move. When (not if) someone else wants to use the Borg, nothing in this series contradicted that the Borg had a setback and recovered long ago in the Delta Quadrant have the capacities of timelessness and patience and are leaving this oddly organized section of the galaxy alone until they can figure out how to deal with them. Meanwhile the Artifact was just a single cube out exploring and learning stuff and the SuperCube was an independent operation of some Borg that got accidentally cut off. I don't even remember what the Queen said about how they got in that situation. It seemed vague to me, perfectly ripe for a Voyager-finale interpretation, but not relying on it.
Yeah, that makes sense. I hate how loose and franchise-maintence-y it is, but it makes sense.

Like how I realized in retrospect that the thing that would have made the Titan being rechristened Enterprise not a completely hollow honor is if it was really the successor in name to the E, the previous ship to carry the name Enterprise and the last ship of the TNG crew. But we gotta get the beloved beta canon Enterprise F in there, even if Shelby could have just been on the USS Odyssey without changing a single shot. So the Odyssey class flagship had to be the Enterprise F that was conveniently being decommissioned next week, just so we could say we saw the F, even if it didn't fit into the story that this season was trying to tell.

I think for now we are done with the Borg. I think it would be interesting to see a new version of them but more on par with Starfleet capability, kind of them reassimilating and rebuilding their society.
I hope so. The visual concept of the drones from TNG has not aged well even through its iterative adjustments over the years. A species that claims to be the perfect union of biology and technology and is a genuine threat to the Federation shouldn't look like the results of an accident in a hardware store, and they can't suddenly make the drones all look like the Queen's First Contact Hellraiser look without explanation either. And the Borg have become so nebulous and so frequent that they can't really have much impact in another story without some time to rest. I still like the idea that what we saw in Picard was putting the concept to bed for now, and I hope that if the Borg do return, it's in a new form and doesn't follow the expectations set up so far, doesn't involve the Queen, etc.
 

Echowarrior

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As I've said before, I'm okay with the Jurati!Borg continuing to kick about and get some development. But if the main core Borg that we've been seeing since 1988 or so never show up again...I would not complain in the slightest.
 

Monique

Guess whos back
Citizen
I think Matalas' intention is that this is the last gasp of the Borg, but he didn't hammer it down, either out of sloppiness or (I hope) out of self-awareness. His show is done and maybe he will get another. But Star Trek is bigger than him and other people need room to move. When (not if) someone else wants to use the Borg, nothing in this series contradicted that the Borg had a setback and recovered long ago in the Delta Quadrant have the capacities of timelessness and patience and are leaving this oddly organized section of the galaxy alone until they can figure out how to deal with them. Meanwhile the Artifact was just a single cube out exploring and learning stuff and the SuperCube was an independent operation of some Borg that got accidentally cut off. I don't even remember what the Queen said about how they got in that situation. It seemed vague to me, perfectly ripe for a Voyager-finale interpretation, but not relying on it.
Whaaat? Someone not using their shot at being in charge of a big piece of pop culture and NOT just kicking the table over and doing whatever they want so they leave an impossible to ignore mark on the property forever? Crazy in this day and age.
 


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