This new thing called socialism

[Axaday]

Someone interacting on a Facebook meme alluded to something that I'm not sure I really pinned all together before. The meme was about free public transportation and they were replying to someone who has trolled that "Well, actually isn't free..." The reply was that this is the way civilization is supposed to work and the comment wasn't well received, but it got me thinking. You go ask the man on the street and he's probably going to tell you that Karl Marx invented Socialism and maybe he'll know enough to say it was about 150 years ago. Man on the street MIGHT think socialism started up in our lifetimes as a woke politics thing.

I know I'm preaching to the choir. Lots of stuff doesn't need to be refuted in detail. But if you've ever gone and read about the trouble with Homo sapiens and Neanderthals, the more recent writings say we used to think Neanderthals were dumber than they were, but they weren't actually dumb. It appears that what screwed them up was living in too small of groups. Our development of larger groups, cooperating and taking care of each other is actually why we are all over the planet instead of Neanderthals. Or instead of nobody. The essence of socialism is actually...what made mankind.

What were the dynamics that made us quit? If I am to believe anecdotes, even 100 years ago people took care of their neighbors and interdepended with extended family. People took care of people without the government saying that had to. But they did stop that. I don't even know many of my neighbors. I see cousins once or twice a year. I have heard that a lot of people don't even know their first cousins. Why did that happen?

 

[Rhinox]

The problem with socialism is that it goes against the myth of America. America is the land of rugged individualism. Where one man can rise up from the steaming pile of mediocrity and become the next titan of industry.
This mythological rugged individual doesn't need any help. It doesn't need other people, or any assistance. It is so suffused with Divine Provenance that no matter the obstacle in their way, they will conquer and rise above. In fact, it is a sign of Divine Favor that one is chosen from the teeming horde to become wealthy.

We strive to become that new god. The one whom stories will be written about. But, by definition, there can only be one. So we view others with suspicion. Believe they're all trying to us us to ascend themselves at our expense. It never occurs that we all could work together, rise together, no.
So socialism, or anything resembling it, is rejected outright as some trick.

America is the land where no one is poor except other people. No, we're just temporarily displaced millionaires, just waiting to be showered with the rewards from a just God who recognizes us as Their most pious servant, deserving of such windfalls.

 

[CoffeeHorse]

Think about how long the Cold War lasted, and the impact that had on the American psyche. Now note that the Red Scare started decades earlier than that.

I can't think of any other examples of such a sustained multi-generational propaganda campaign against a particular enemy in all of human history. Maybe you could look at the epic feud between France and England, but they didn't have anything like the machinery of propaganda that existed in the 20th century. That was new, and we have not yet properly grappled with it.

 

[Rhinox]

True. And that's the thing. It's so engrained that "socialism = bad" that no one actually delves into it. I don't think the average American could define socialism. It's some boogieman that we've been taught since birth to fear and hate. All you have to do is label something as socialist and it immediately turns into this horrid thing.

 

[Axaday]

Think about how long the Cold War lasted, and the impact that had on the American psyche. Now note that the Red Scare started decades earlier than that.

I can't think of any other examples of such a sustained multi-generational propaganda campaign against a particular enemy in all of human history. Maybe you could look at the epic feud between France and England, but they didn't have anything like the machinery of propaganda that existed in the 20th century. That was new, and we have not yet properly grappled with it.

You probably answered the question and we can close this one up.

True. And that's the thing. It's so engrained that "socialism = bad" that no one actually delves into it. I don't think the average American could define socialism. It's some boogieman that we've been taught since birth to fear and hate. All you have to do is label something as socialist and it immediately turns into this horrid thing.

Oh, no. The average person could define it. It is taxing me and giving the money to someone who will not work.

It definitely isn't highways and libraries and fire fighters and the army.

 

[wonko the sane?]

The really stupid thing is that the word "socialism" is just the modern take on the concept. Everyone pitching and creating infrastructure contracted and maintained by the state through taxes is literally how civilizations works.

 

[Ultra Magnus13]

Someone interacting on a Facebook meme alluded to something that I'm not sure I really pinned all together before. The meme was about free public transportation and they were replying to someone who has trolled that "Well, actually isn't free..." The reply was that this is the way civilization is supposed to work and the comment wasn't well received, but it got me thinking. You go ask the man on the street and he's probably going to tell you that Karl Marx invented Socialism and maybe he'll know enough to say it was about 150 years ago. Man on the street MIGHT think socialism started up in our lifetimes as a woke politics thing.

I know I'm preaching to the choir. Lots of stuff doesn't need to be refuted in detail. But if you've ever gone and read about the trouble with Homo sapiens and Neanderthals, the more recent writings say we used to think Neanderthals were dumber than they were, but they weren't actually dumb. It appears that what screwed them up was living in too small of groups. Our development of larger groups, cooperating and taking care of each other is actually why we are all over the planet instead of Neanderthals. Or instead of nobody. The essence of socialism is actually...what made mankind.

What were the dynamics that made us quit? If I am to believe anecdotes, even 100 years ago people took care of their neighbors and interdepended with extended family. People took care of people without the government saying that had to. But they did stop that. I don't even know many of my neighbors. I see cousins once or twice a year. I have heard that a lot of people don't even know their first cousins. Why did that happen?

Imo this has always been based off of self preservation.

This was done 100 years ago, because the government wasn't providing your safety net. You had to build it.

You went to church, gave your time, and supported others. Then if you had a house fire, the church and congregation would help you with a place to stay, new clothes etc.

You helped your neighbor with their flooded basement, so they would help you with the tree that may fall on your roof.

It's a primitive bartering version of insurance.

 

[Ungnome]

Ugh, if only the other founders had listened to Thomas Paine.. He was by many accounts insufferable but his ideas were a lot more just in many ways than what the others were proposing.

 

[NovaSaber]

The problem with socialism is that it goes against the myth of America. America is the land of rugged individualism. Where one man can rise up from the steaming pile of mediocrity and become the next titan of industry.
This mythological rugged individual doesn't need any help. It doesn't need other people, or any assistance. It is so suffused with Divine Provenance that no matter the obstacle in their way, they will conquer and rise above. In fact, it is a sign of Divine Favor that one is chosen from the teeming horde to become wealthy.

The myth is only maintained by the absurdity of perceiving the singular head of a large group as such an "individual".

Like, what's the most successful anyone ever got primarily actually working alone? In terms of money it's probably some author, though the only super-rich authors are those whose works got adapted into television and/or movies by large corporations.

 

[Axaday]

Imo this has always been based off of self preservation.

This was done 100 years ago, because the government wasn't providing your safety net. You had to build it.

You went to church, gave your time, and supported others. Then if you had a house fire, the church and congregation would help you with a place to stay, new clothes etc.

You helped your neighbor with their flooded basement, so they would help you with the tree that may fall on your roof.

It's a primitive bartering version of insurance.

Well, I'm not sure. Certainly many people may have had that in mind. I learned this stuff through anecdotes. I wasn't there. There has been plenty of time for people to alter the truth.

There is at least some counterexample. People used to take care of their parents and their aunts and uncles when they couldn't work anymore. You can give that a mercenary interpretation that you are demonstrating the tradition for your own children or nieces and nephews, but I don't think people were really thinking in those terms. I think people were returning a debt to people that were important to them. As I ponder about what happened, I notice some knowledge gaps. When did "retirement" become a general concept? Was it when social security started or shortly before? My dad's dad was a farmer, but in the modern age when a farmer generally also needs a job, so he worked for the highway department. He retired from the highway, but he never retired from farming. He had given 1/4 of the farm to his daughter and her husband in middle age and my uncle was co-operating with him from then on. In his last years, grandpa couldn't do much of the work, but he never quit and I am guessing that was the normal thing in our agrarian history. I expect only white collar city people actually came to a spot where they thought they had enough money to quit their job for the rest of their life and probably even those worked longer than is typical nowadays and lived shorter in retirement. I am just guessing everyone else worked until they were unable and then had to be taken in for a few years by some family that was ready to take them.

My dad is a Republican and sees things through that lens, so I'm just setting this on the table to be examined, but he feels like the government came in with things like social security because a few people some places weren't taking care of their elders and they disrupted the whole system for everyone else. My feeling is that there were probably a LOT of people not taking care of elders or based on the timing perhaps a lot of people unable to.

You come to now and I have a cousin who sold a company he made for $10 million before he was 40 and I have some other cousins that are grinding along in blue collar jobs. And those cousins probably wouldn't seriously consider asking him to lift them up. It would be considered really rude. A man is supposed to make his own way, right?

Ugh, if only the other founders had listened to Thomas Paine.. He was by many accounts insufferable but his ideas were a lot more just in many ways than what the others were proposing.

What are you referencing specifically? I have not read "Agrarian Justice", but I read something where he proposed a kind of property/use tax. It was either in "Common Sense" proper or it was in another work that was in the same cover in my copy.

I think the other founders listened to Thomas Paine as along as they could stand to.

 

[Rhinox]

The myth is only maintained by the absurdity of perceiving the singular head of a large group as such an "individual".

Like, what's the most successful anyone ever got primarily actually working alone? In terms of money it's probably some author, though the only super-rich authors are those whose works got adapted into television and/or movies by large corporations.

It's a myth. It was never real to begin with. An example, Jeff Bezos. He started Amazon after a half a million dollar loan from his family. How many people have family that can gamble a half mil for a dream? Elon Musk? Shall we continue to talk about his daddy's emerald mine?
There are always people behind these 'singular' rugged individuals. There are always friends or family that prop them up, loan them money, keep them from feeling failure.

 

[Axaday]

That makes sense. I never thought Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk looked very rugged.

 

[Rhinox]

hug, look at the Teflon Don. the only reason, THE ONLY REASON we have that fuckstick around is because daddy Fred Trump kept bailing his dumb ******* ass out. The man bankrupted a ******* casino. A CASINO! hug, please won't people pay attention?!

 

[Axaday]

When did the myth start? Does it go all the way back? It is possible that we've been selected for it, most of us descended from immigrants who REALLY stuck their neck out to go try on another continent.

 

[Ungnome]

The Puritans lived in what were essentially religious communes at first, so I'm not quite sure.

 

[The Mighty Mollusk]

hug, look at the Teflon Don. the only reason, THE ONLY REASON we have that fuckstick around is because daddy Fred Trump kept bailing his dumb ******* ass out. The man bankrupted a ******* casino. A CASINO! hug, please won't people pay attention?!

Now, now, that's hardly fair.

He bankrupted THREE casinos.

He also owned three more and sold them later. At least two of those are also out of business now.

 

[Axaday]

Casinos are actually more vulnerable than you are giving them credit for. Las Vegas casinos right now are doing a little better, but they have had hard times and even now gambling is only 1/4 of their revenue.

Trump just doesn't know how to do anything. I am certain that any business he has succeeded at has had a talented manager ignoring his suggestions.

 

[Ungnome]

Casinos are actually more vulnerable than you are giving them credit for. Las Vegas casinos right now are doing a little better, but they have had hard times and even now gambling is only 1/4 of their revenue.

Trump just doesn't know how to do anything. I am certain that any business he has succeeded at has had a talented manager ignoring his suggestions.

Yet another thing he has in common with Musk.

 

[Sjogre]

Trump just doesn't know how to do anything. I am certain that any business he has succeeded at has had a talented manager ignoring his suggestions.

Last I heard, the only thing he did before politics that was an actual success was The Apprentice, and that had a television crew making him look good.

 

[Axaday]

Last I heard, the only thing he did before politics that was an actual success was The Apprentice, and that had a television crew making him look good.

He starred in that and got a producer credit, but it wasn't his idea and another guy was really producing it.