Timey Wimey Business- a thread for Doctor Who

[Fero McPigletron]

The design and animation for the Tenth Doctor was pretty cool but I feel like Rick would have forced a bloody win, yeah.

Got a surprise tho, from reading the comments. Someone said that the Doctor eventually freed the little girl he trapped in all the mirrors. I remember that horrifying punishments the Doctor did in the Family of Blood episode, punishments that seemed quite severe. I recalled thinking it was too much but the Doctor was furious at losing his fabricated human life and so was unnecessarily cruel.

I forgot that he was said to visit the sister every year. And the person said that there were Doctor Who short stories and such released during the Covid years. One of them was written by the original writer of the Family of Blood, Paul Cornell. He had the 13th Doctor give closure to the little girl.

 

[LiamA]

I had a thought. With Neil Patrick Harris in the anniversary specials it's going to be a doctor vs. doctor fight.

 

[PrimalxConvoy]

I had a thought. With Neil Patrick Harris in the anniversary specials it's going to be a doctor vs. doctor fight.

 

[G.B.Blackrock]

I was thinking "Dr. Horrible," myself.

 

[Monique]

So I guess there is a bit of controversy with how Davros appeared in the Children In Need Skit. Namely that apparently instead of this just being a pre-injury Davros, RTD says this is now canon Davros going forward. Obviously this has sparked some discussion online as to why anyone would think this was a good idea. RTD explains his reasoning in a behind the scenes interview.

RUSSEL T DAVIES: We had long conversations about bringing Davros back because he's a fantastic character. Time and society and culture and taste has moved on, and there's a problem with the Davros of old in that he's a wheelchair user who's evil. And I had problems with that, and a lot of us on the production team had problems with that, of associating disability with evil, and trust me, there's a very long tradition of this.

I'm not blaming people in the past at all, but the world changes, and when the world changes Doctor Who has to change as well.

Which seems just like the most baffling way of reading Davros and a complete failure of media literacy. Davros was not evil or scarred because he was in a wheelchair. He was evil before that. They were not the cause of, or even the result of, his moral failings. They were a asthetical link back to his creations, and a potential inspirations for how they were designed as either he designed them and then upgraded his body with what he saw as superior movement technology, or he designed them with said technology as he found it superior to a bipedal design.

It simply seems like either a failure to understand the source material, which is worrisome, or its trying desperately to justify a "modern audiences" change and not really having any good arguments for it, which is also not great.

 

[Haywire]

I mean, if people (and I mean people, more than 1 or 2, there's bound to be few outlying cases of crazy out there) are watching a fictional science fiction programme of fiction, and the alien creator of one of the major alien baddies is perceived as in a wheelchair (its really more of a life support system), and they are equating a fictional bad guy in a travel machine with real people in wheelchairs, and using that to justify prejudice against real people, then it's problematic for sure.

...is that actually happening? (I genuinely don't know) If it is, then why bring back a problematic character at all? Write a new one and move on; or, instead of Davros, make Yarvelling the Canon creator of the Daleks going forward, he's got a lot less history and baggage to work around, yet would still technically be true to classic Who lore.

 

[G.B.Blackrock]

I see the words in what RTD is saying that people are taking to suggest that future appearances of Davros will be wheelchair-free, but that's not how I read this. He's admitting that he's changed canon re: the origins of the Daleks (whose designs were based on his wheelchair, in theory), but it's a tweak. We accept it and move on. Were a walking Davros to appear in a "present" Dalek story, it would break all suspension of disbelief. I'm not worried about "canon," per se. We'd be ripped right out of the story by such a portrayal.

But, again, I don't see RTD saying "if we do Davros in the present, he won't be in a wheelchair anymore," he's saying, "we've tweaked history, so he wasn't crippled before designing the Daleks anymore.... 'this is our new lens.'" I see this in much the same way as he tweaked regenerations to avoid having Tennant in drag, which he saw as a potential distraction from the story itself, because of unfortunate realities in the larger world.

People point out the precedent of 1st to 2nd Doctor, but even that... which we don't have good historical visuals for, anyway... wasn't this extreme. Indeed, there's a whole sequence in Power of the Daleks where the 1st Doctor's ring... very much still being worn... falls off the 2nd Doctor's finger because it doesn't fit anymore. It wasn't a "whole costume" change like we're seeing with 13-to-14. Indeed, I think the fact that of that tweak with the regenerated costume (rightly or wrongly) plays into why people are so freaked out about this one with Davros. Never mind RTD's past history with Doctor Who, they see him as arbitrarily changing things for weak (to say nothing of the insipid "woke") reasons.

 

[Superomegaprime]

The only way around Davros and the Wheelchair issue, not that it was ever a issue to start with, is for Davros to have actually used his genius to heal his broken body, but it would need to be set after his last appearance and his encounter with the 12th Doctor, but if they retroactively alt his established history in a disrespectful way, they will likely loose more fans who are fed up of bad recons that should not be!

 

[Monique]

I see this in much the same way as he tweaked regenerations to avoid having Tennant in drag, which he saw as a potential distraction from the story itself, because of unfortunate realities in the larger world.

Would that even be considered drag? Its not like shes wearing a dress. Shes got high waisted jeans and suspenders on. Presumably she has womens undergarments on too but like... not like they were ever going to have a scene showing that and the doctor usually just nips into the tardis and changes outfits soon after soooo feels more like a change made out of an irrational fear than anything.

 

[Princess Viola]

Honestly they should just retire Davros as a character entirely at this point.

Like I feel his whole story (at least as far as TV appearances go, spin-off stuff can do whatever they want) should have just begun and ended with Genesis of the Daleks, cause nearly every post-Genesis Davros story has functionally fallen into one of two categories:
1. HAHAHA I AM DAVROS CREATOR OF THE DALEKS AND THE DALEKS LISTEN TO ME, THEIR CREATOR

2. Oh no jive I didn't realize that making Daleks hate all non-Dalek life would mean they hate me too goddamit jive I want them to obey and listen to me goddammit.

Also while I obviously can't speak for disabled people about this, RTD's quote give off the same vibe as I see when people act like it's 'wrong' or somehow 'offensive' when there's a queer character in a piece of media and they're a villain [or sometimes just flawed as a character]. And speaking as someone who is very much queer herself, that is genuinely more offensive than a villain or whatever being gay. Queer characters don't have to be flawless perfect beings, they can have flaws, they can be villains, they can be whatever. And I feel the same with disabled characters as well. So long as they're not acting as if there's a connection between the two things, that is. I don't think a single piece of Doctor Who media has ever even remotely given off vibes that Davros is evil because he's disabled, he's just an evil villain who just happens to be disabled.

 

[PrimalxConvoy]

I mean, if people (and I mean people, more than 1 or 2, there's bound to be few outlying cases of crazy out there) are watching a fictional science fiction programme of fiction, and the alien creator of one of the major alien baddies is perceived as in a wheelchair (its really more of a life support system), and they are equating a fictional bad guy in a travel machine with real people in wheelchairs, and using that to justify prejudice against real people, then it's problematic for sure.

...is that actually happening? (I genuinely don't know) If it is, then why bring back a problematic character at all? Write a new one and move on; or, instead of Davros, make Yarvelling the Canon creator of the Daleks going forward, he's got a lot less history and baggage to work around, yet would still technically be true to classic Who lore.

I'm so sorry...

 

[PrimalxConvoy]

I see the words in what RTD is saying that people are taking to suggest that future appearances of Davros will be wheelchair-free, but that's not how I read this. He's admitting that he's changed canon re: the origins of the Daleks (whose designs were based on his wheelchair, in theory), but it's a tweak. We accept it and move on. Were a walking Davros to appear in a "present" Dalek story, it would break all suspension of disbelief. I'm not worried about "canon," per se. We'd be ripped right out of the story by such a portrayal.

But, again, I don't see RTD saying "if we do Davros in the present, he won't be in a wheelchair anymore," he's saying, "we've tweaked history, so he wasn't crippled before designing the Daleks anymore.... 'this is our new lens.'" I see this in much the same way as he tweaked regenerations to avoid having Tennant in drag, which he saw as a potential distraction from the story itself, because of unfortunate realities in the larger world.

People point out the precedent of 1st to 2nd Doctor, but even that... which we don't have good historical visuals for, anyway... wasn't this extreme. Indeed, there's a whole sequence in Power of the Daleks where the 1st Doctor's ring... very much still being worn... falls off the 2nd Doctor's finger because it doesn't fit anymore. It wasn't a "whole costume" change like we're seeing with 13-to-14. Indeed, I think the fact that of that tweak with the regenerated costume (rightly or wrongly) plays into why people are so freaked out about this one with Davros. Never mind RTD's past history with Doctor Who, they see him as arbitrarily changing things for weak (to say nothing of the insipid "woke") reasons.

Also, Doctor Who, by incident or design (or bad writing?) it's all about the multiverse, or multiple realities, right? Why can't we have a walking Davros?

 

[Superomegaprime]

Also, Doctor Who, by incident or design (or bad writing?) it's all about the multiverse, or multiple realities, right? Why can't we have a walking Davros?

Techinally the loop hole created to explain all of the troubles with the Doctor's adventures, such as the Dalaks being limited to their base during their first appearance, is the "Time War" the War to end all Wars, between the Time Lords & the Dalaks and the Doctor isn't actually travelling between alterative universes aside from the two part story where the Cybermen had their first appearance in the revived Doctor Who, that is the only story where the Doctor goes into a alterative reality and that reailty is used to exit Billie Piper, AKA Rose Tyer from the show at the climax of season 2, so history in the show, is a mess, purely by accident, thou its said that certain events are not to be tampered with, because of the consquences and the Doctor avoids trying to cross into his own timeline and that goes for all time travellers, so Davros's history is meant to be fixed, he is meant to become physically blind and disabled, its just that nobody doing the writing has thought to have him figure a means to restore his body to full health as his look is Iconic as the Dalaks general look, so if you take Davros out of the wheel chair and restore his body completely, you pretty much just get a standard actor playing the role and likely a forgettable preformance!

 

[G.B.Blackrock]

Would that even be considered drag? Its not like shes wearing a dress. Shes got high waisted jeans and suspenders on. Presumably she has womens undergarments on too but like... not like they were ever going to have a scene showing that and the doctor usually just nips into the tardis and changes outfits soon after soooo feels more like a change made out of an irrational fear than anything.

I'm not interested in defending RTDs decision. Just stating that he specifically said that was the reason the Doctor changed clothes during this regeneration.

 

[G.B.Blackrock]

Also, Doctor Who, by incident or design (or bad writing?) it's all about the multiverse, or multiple realities, right? Why can't we have a walking Davros?

As far as "canon" goes, we could (although no change thus far has gone quite that far, IMHO, people's feelings about the Timeless Child notwithstanding). My concern is that it unneccessarily yanks people out of the story, because it's SO different from the character we've always known.

That said, no, Doctor Who has really NOT been all about multiple realities OR the multiverse. Such elements exist, but they've really never been especially significant to the larger canon. They're plot devices for individual stores (and not very many of them), that's all.

 

[Haywire]

Generally, I think Who has tried to stay true to a general continuity over the years, but that doesn't mean there haven't been some retcons over the life of the series. One of the key factors in its longevity was its adaptability; the Doctor was explicitly an alien from the very first serial, but when the original actor was unable to continue the role, it was "learned" that his kind could regenerate into a new (actor's) body.
The other reality is that it was impossible when the original series was being created for every writer to have exhaustive knowledge of everything Who, so discrepancies happened, and people rolled with it. Modern Who has a somewhat harder time, as most of the Who legacy of minutia is out there for anyone to Google and nitpick.

With Davros specifically, I guess if this new version is just Davros before the accident that confines him to a life support system, then that's fine. If RTD was saying we will never see Davros in his old form again, then I'm less fine with it. Without that visual link to his creations' travel machines, he might as well be Jonathan Pryce's Dalek-restored Master from "The Curse of Fatal Death" ("...they're not breasts, they're...Dalek Bumps!").
....unless they skip his classic form and jump right to his White Imperial Dalek incarnation. Haven't seen that in a while...

But, yeah, it's not torch-and-pitchfork time, not by a long shot. If GB's read on it is correct, then it's a minor tweak and not a terrible one at that.

 

[PrimalxConvoy]

I'm curious, has the term "hiding behind the sofa" made it outside the UK at all?

 

[Haywire]

I'm curious, has the term "hiding behind the sofa" made it outside the UK at all?

I'm aware of it, largely because of the Completely Useless Encyclopedia, an excellent reference guide for fans of classic Who:
https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/The_Completely_Useless_Encyclopedia

I wouldn't say the phrase gets a lot of use in the circles I travel in, though, so not sure that it's really made it out?

 

[Donocropolis]

I'm curious, has the term "hiding behind the sofa" made it outside the UK at all?

I've never heard it, but it's funny because one of the extremely few memories I have of my parents watching classic Who back in the day is getting scared at a scene of a mad scientist type getting eaten by his own monsterous creation and hiding behind a chair (well, more to the side of, but keeping the chair firmly between myself and the television). I had to have been pretty young, as it was at my family's first house, which we moved out of when I had recently turned 6.

 

[PrimalxConvoy]

I've never heard it, but it's funny because one of the extremely few memories I have of my parents watching classic Who back in the day is getting scared at a scene of a mad scientist type getting eaten by his own monsterous creation and hiding behind a chair (well, more to the side of, but keeping the chair firmly between myself and the television). I had to have been pretty young, as it was at my family's first house, which we moved out of when I had recently turned 6.

I invite my fellow non-brits to import this term into their lexicon and start to use it online. Ti's an apt and fair term for one an' all.

I used to hide behind the sofa when Doctor Who was on. I was scared when they turned people into Daleks or Cybermen and I also remember doing the same when I watched the full rendition of "Thriller" by Michael Jackson and that "assimilation" scene in Superman when I was a nipper.