Transformer Alt Modes as a metaphor for Self-Determination?

KingSwoop

Member
Citizen
Agreed, that's really the hitch in the "genderless" option, that so many of them are clearly written as "male" as opposed to truly neuter. There's so little reference frame for a non-gendered being that it's almost impossible for the writer/viewer not to immediately make the character lean into one even without meaning to.
On your view, what work is "gender" doing besides preconceived notions?

For example, what's the difference between la biblioteca and el biblioteca? Libraries don't have human genders (regardless of whether "gender" is meant to pick out biological sex or social gender). It's not clear I could conceivably say "that library has a gender", but if I could whatever I'm saying doesn't actually affect the library, does it? If I look at the library and say "it's male" and someone else (deeply confused) looks at it and says "it's female" it doesn't matter; we're both deeply confused.

Maybe you're working with authorial intent here; whether a writer likes or not they might "write" a transformer as male "without trying." I suppose this makes sense, but canonically transformers have always had explicit genders. WHAT that means hasn't been explicitly explored, apart from the fact that practically all instances of transformer creation has been asexual budding (from cybertron, from each other, from the matrix, etc.)

I guess I'll just say this and leave it at this...
We are humans. Humans write fiction that appeals to emotions and concerns other humans share. Making characters relatable to other humans (ie the audience) is ideal. Therefore every "alien" race has to be at least somewhat relatable to humans for the audience in general to give a f. Transformers have, since Day One, been incredibly relatable to their human audience, and trying to lessen that for any reason seems ill advised from a creative and marketing standpoint.
I'm not a fan of "fiction is a human construct" as an excuse to get out of critically evaluating fictional worldbuilding. (I understand what you're getting at, but it's discussing fiction as fiction, rather than engaging with the fictional world. Both are philosophically interesting, but when I ask "Why does X happen in fiction?" I'm asking about the fictional world, not how the fictional world was written... in most cases.)

Extra-fictionally, Star Trek aliens looks like humans with junk glued to their head because it is cost effective; but in fiction, Star Trek aliens often look like humans because they're all related due to aliens seeding other planets with life.

Extra-fictionally, many science fiction aliens are gendered male/female because we human beings are gendered male/female; but in fiction that's not the answer. One option, and arguably the one that's most supported by many fictions, is that transformers are genderless robots who have taken on a truly social gender - one that corresponds with either physical or social genders of alien species who transformers interact with and/or were created to interact with.

However, extra fictionally physical sexual gender has evolutionary advantages, and this is true in fiction as well. So while most fictions have depicted asexual reproduction of one form or another, transformer sexual reproduction (rare or not) would be a reasonable way to explain gender & romantic relationships (rare or not). Gender as physical sexual gender has more explanatory power than gender as mimicking others. Of course this isn't to say that Transformers can't or wouldn't have "cultural" gender or "social role" gender; but in the real world such things are - at best - nuanced in a way that it's difficult to put into fiction aimed at children.

In the real world, of course, some people identify as gender as other than their physical sexual characteristics (whether genetic or expression) due to perceived social (often cultural) gender roles, but this strikes me as problematic; saying you're [female] because you sit most of the [female gender stereotypes] seems problematic in two ways: (1) rather than recognize the stereotype as a stereotype, it seems to treat the stereotype as a definition - effectively a part-whole fallacy see: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fallacies/ & (2) seems to be inconsistent with how people who use the stereotypical language would use the term.

Even then there's a gotcha. There's a wide range in Transformers for how easy swapping alt modes is. One extreme is demonstrated in Rise of the Beasts, where Mirage swaps through alt modes like he's flicking through a photo album and changes from a small car to a garbage truck for a single scene. (If he's uniquely flexible due to his holography powers the movie doesn't mention or indicate it.) The other extreme is Animated, where Autobots require a ship's facilities to change alt modes and even a Decepticon seems to require elaborate reconstruction to go from a space gunship to a helicopter gunship.

But the premise of "robots in disguise" from another planet means that at least once in every continuity, everyone has to change alt modes at least this much.

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Better late than never.

You're right here. Obviously "I can transform into anything I want and I scanned a bajillion options so I'm prepared" is preferable to "I can only transform into a garbage truck" in the same way DC's The Flash's running ability is better than mine - IE, he can run really fast and I can't.

The problem, of course, is that ROTB Mirage really should have transformed into a tank or a jet or whatever. Why fly in Stratosphere when everyone can just take a jet alt mode and fly on their own? Because ROTB transformers are "too powerful" then there's no way for writers to convincingly write them consistently.

The best example of this is Star Trek Discovery, where in S1+2, it could teleport anywhere at any time with no drawback, and S3+ everyone had personal transporters that they used instead of... you know... opening the door (probably because it's filmed on green screen and opening the door animation costs more than teleportation animation...). The writers gave the crew of the Discovery so much unprecedented future technology that nothing was a coherent threat. "There's this bad guy OVER THERE that we need you to find. Okay, black alert, we're there. Done. We need you to destroy a whole alien species. Don't worry, Bad Rick Sanchez just built us a genocidal war crime in a lunch box. And he didn't even need a box of scraps like Tony Stark."

All else being equal, you need to explain why Optimus Prime doesn't transform into a jet plane when he needs to fly. Him being too lazy is a bad explanation. Him being unable to, because only Teletran One or a similar ancient computer can do this, and even then not easily IS a good explanation. Even if you want your characters to be able to scan new alt modes on the fly, it's probably a good idea to give this limits... it takes a lot of energon; they need a cool down period, etc.
 
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LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
I'm not a fan of "fiction is a human construct" as an excuse to get out of critically evaluating fictional worldbuilding.
You can not be a fan of it all you want, it's true.

Why does Star Trek treat every alien race as if it were a nation-state with a single self-contained culture? 'cause that's relatable. Sure, realistically every alien race in Star Trek should have a bevy of different cultures, religions, worldviews, belief systems, and languages. There is no "human" language, why is there a "Klingon" language?
'cause that's relatable and easy to explain and brevity is the soul of wit.

"Real estate of the page" is a very real concept. You, the author, are writing a book/movie/tv show episode/comic book. You have a plot that's the central narrative. Everything you put on the page needs to service that in some way. And a big part of any plot regardless of genre is getting the audience to relate to the characters. That's why characters have to have relatable issues, personalities, and conflicts. Even if they are not human.
You only have twenty-two minutes to tell your Transformers story for this episode. Are you going to get into the weeds on how Transformers are totally alien and distinct from us? Or are you going to make them relatable and flesh out your central plot?

In short, don't waste the audience's time.

I understand what you're getting at, but it's discussing fiction as fiction, rather than engaging with the fictional world. Both are philosophically interesting, but when I ask "Why does X happen in fiction?" I'm asking about the fictional world, not how the fictional world was written... in most cases.
Well here's the thing.

Transformers have ALWAYS been allegorical to humanity. Since day one, episode one. What was the cause of the Great War in the G1 show? An energy crisis. Which was extremely topical in the world in the early/mid 1980s. Hell, it's still a huge issue today. From day one, episode one Transformers have been written to be very relatable to humanity. They have human problems (energy crisis, civil war based on racial and/or political divisions), they have human concepts of gender. See Elita and her crew, and Arcee. It was never explained or laboured over, it just was. Some robots identified as male, others female.

There are works of fiction that make it a point to truly explore what an alien society would be. The Left Hand of Darkness Ursula K Le Guin is a bit dated (it was written when gender fluid identity was an alien concept in western society), but the effort is there. There's also Blindsight by Peter Watts or The Crucible of Time by John Brunner. And if you want something on tv? Well... Farscape is probably your best bet. Thing is... as good as all of these works are... one of the central themes was to explore truly alien/extraterrestrial cultures and make them as unrelatable to us as possible. Outside of stories with that specific goal... well... aliens tend to be written as humans for the reasons explained.

And Transformers is one of those. They have been, since the start, written to be reflections of humanity. And there's nothing wrong with that. You can't divorce Transformers from that concept of relateability to humans, it's intrinsic at this point. I covered the 80s, let's talk about stuff added to that in the present.

Class-based society stifling social change
Debates between the schools of "change through peaceful reform" vs "change through violent revolution"
Death camps
Genocide
Gender identity
Self-determination
The role of religion as a social and political factor
Debates between religion, science, and questions about whether they can coexist
PTSD as the result of service during a war
Racism
How justified anger can turn to destructive vengeance
Imperialism
Questions of the soul and afterlife
One's sense of morality in conflict with the morality of a larger group they consider themselves a part of
Having to adjust to life in a new space because war drove you from your home

I can pick out any Transformers story from 1984 to 2024 and find at least one of those.... along with "civil war" and "energy crisis"... without breaking a sweat (I mean... maybe not BotBots, but also... maybe? I've never seen it).
And ALL of these are very real, human problems and concepts.

So it's totally ok if you want science fiction to treat aliens as truly alien. There are works out there that cater to that very idea. It's just that Transformers never has been that, and never will be that. So kicking up a stink wanting it to be that is a lost cause.

I'm asking about the fictional world, not how the fictional world was written
Frankly I think we as fans can stand to take a step back now and then. I'm reminded of a scene in IDW's All Hail Megatron where Kup leads the Wreckers during a badass hero introduction. Kup is chomping on a robotic looking cigar. This is clearly meant to be a visual nod to the concept of the experienced military leader, smoking a cigar or pipe as he leads his soldiers. Frankly? It should have stayed that. A fun visual flare to sell an image, an idea.
Problem was fans demanded an explanation, and the "cy-gar" was born, complete with a total rundown of how it worked and why.

That's not the worst thing, really, but it's also not strictly necessary.

"WHY DO SOME ROBOTS HAVE BOOBS?" 'cause some do. G1 Sunbow never tried to explain it, and every comic attempt to explain it has been more laughable than the last.
So just do yourselves a favour and stop fretting over it. Some of the robots are ladies. And you don't have to think about Transformers having sex to accept it.
 

NovaSaber

Well-known member
Citizen
1 year late but I don't care, transformers don't need gender, it's as simple as that.
Unless you're talking about for the next new continuity, "need" is irrelevant.
It's already established that they have gender in all the existing continuities.
(The major one that said otherwise without retconning it is functionally "all male, except for Arcee whose origin story is stupid because Simon Furman is a sexist hack".)

especially when they only have two genders and pronouns....why would an alien race only have 2 genders and pronouns?
Since the main gender discussion in this thread has revolved around a non-binary Transformer, I'm not sure who you think you're agreeing or disagreeing with here.

"b-but we must relate to them!!" What about LGBTQ people? Can't they have some nonbinary characters to relate to too?
Well, a character certainly can't be gay or trans if their species has no gender.

An entire society of genderless characters might be somewhat relatable to non-binary people, but definitely farther removed from their actual experiences than having some non-binary characters among gendered ones.

Extra-fictionally, many science fiction aliens are gendered male/female because we human beings are gendered male/female; but in fiction that's not the answer. One option, and arguably the one that's most supported by many fictions, is that transformers are genderless robots who have taken on a truly social gender - one that corresponds with either physical or social genders of alien species who transformers interact with and/or were created to interact with.
No, they're sexless robots who have at minimum social gender.
Continuities that go into any depth on the subject (especially IDW's comics with trans Transformers, and Earthspark with Nightshade) confirm they also have mental/emotional gender.
(And continuities with Solus Prime as one of the original thirteen Transformers also exclude the idea of gender being something Transformers picked up later instead of having had from the start.)

However, extra fictionally physical sexual gender has evolutionary advantages, and this is true in fiction as well.
Sexual reproduction has evolutionary advantages.
Actually having different sexes is, if reproductive differences are the only distinction, more or less an even tradeoff compared to hermaphroditism. (This disadvantage is obvious, cutting the number of potential mates in half. The advantage is a reduction in the number of organs that must develop in each individual. So it's only an advantage in the same sense that cave-dwellers losing their eyes is an advantage.)

So while most fictions have depicted asexual reproduction of one form or another, transformer sexual reproduction (rare or not) would be a reasonable way to explain gender & romantic relationships (rare or not).
Transformers do somehow have physical sexes in some continuities (IDW Arcee simply doesn't make sense if they don't), but even that's never been established to be linked to any means of reproduction.

Gender as physical sexual gender has more explanatory power than gender as mimicking others.
But it's neither of those things. Nobody in this thread is arguing for "it's mimicking others".

In the real world, of course, some people identify as gender as other than their physical sexual characteristics (whether genetic or expression) due to perceived social (often cultural) gender roles
Gender identity is ******* not gender roles.

, but this strikes me as problematic; saying you're [female] because you sit most of the [female gender stereotypes] seems problematic in two ways
That's not how people realize they're trans.

: (1) rather than recognize the stereotype as a stereotype, it seems to treat the stereotype as a definition - effectively a part-whole fallacy see: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fallacies/
How many trans people have you met? A lot of them don't fit many stereotypes of their gender.
Actually, do you know how many trans women are on this board, which is, after all, fundamentally about a "boy's toy"?

I mean, hug the idea of toys being gendered, but I don't think people who were making important life decisions based on stereotypes would be into toys or media "for" the gender they don't want to be.
 


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