Transformers: Age of the Primes toyline discussion 10/27 Update: First look at Megatronus the Fallen
- Thread starter TriBlurr
- Start date
Combiner Wars retools, CW Onslaught, Brawl, Vortex, Sky Dive and Air raid.
I was thinking of something along those lines...A pretool of Energon Optimus?
I'd rather they did a full Combiner, though. Five or so robots, five or so vehicles, one big mamba-jamba of a robot.
As for Optimus being the 13th and all, I did see one video where they were talking about the Star Convoy form being like his re-ascent to that original status.
I sorta like it.
But not as much as I like Optimus Prime just being some dude who was chosen because he was good.
See, that’s kinda where I’m coming from fiction wise as well. Prime rising up from being ‘just a guy’ to become a great leader is good, because he’s not special. Other than being worthy of the Matrix.
But when Hasbro adds in the idea that he was once a demigod who gave up his power to reincarnate as a guy. Yet he still ends up ‘destined to lead’. Thus making him a chosen one. It lo see the fun a bit.
I mean it can work. But I think I’d be more for him (as Star Convoy) becoming an almost god like being. Rather than him always having been one.
As to Nexus. combiner retools or redeco could work nicely. Since his funpub figures were retools of the Superion/ Bruticus Maximus Energon figures. A type of Power Core could have worked, but that ship has long sailed.
But when Hasbro adds in the idea that he was once a demigod who gave up his power to reincarnate as a guy. Yet he still ends up ‘destined to lead’. Thus making him a chosen one. It lo see the fun a bit.
I mean it can work. But I think I’d be more for him (as Star Convoy) becoming an almost god like being. Rather than him always having been one.
As to Nexus. combiner retools or redeco could work nicely. Since his funpub figures were retools of the Superion/ Bruticus Maximus Energon figures. A type of Power Core could have worked, but that ship has long sailed.
Yeah, totally agree. I don't mind the idea of Optimus ascending to something greater than your average bot, but I think it cheapens his journey if he started there.
That said, I've always kind of liked to keep the metaphysical aspects of Transformers to a minimum. I don't mind Unicron and Primus, but I've never been a huge fan of the demi-god level 13 Primes or whatnot. I'd prefer the first generation of Cybertronians just be regular people. Maybe they'd be a bit more powerful than your average "modern" bot (closer to Primus's original designs, untainted by the Quintessons, etc.), but not anything beyond the realm of "mortals."
That said, I've always kind of liked to keep the metaphysical aspects of Transformers to a minimum. I don't mind Unicron and Primus, but I've never been a huge fan of the demi-god level 13 Primes or whatnot. I'd prefer the first generation of Cybertronians just be regular people. Maybe they'd be a bit more powerful than your average "modern" bot (closer to Primus's original designs, untainted by the Quintessons, etc.), but not anything beyond the realm of "mortals."
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I prefer my Optimus more John Wayne than Jesus Christ.
This is why I like them as prototypes/test-types; loaded down with features and capabilities that got budgeted out of the "production models."
Although, wouldn't the analogy these days be more "Captain America" than John Wayne?
And what a lot of writers seem to forget is that, despite his being "a good guy who became a great leader", he still wasn't worthy of the Matrix.
Ultra Magnus: "But, Prime. I'm just a soldier. I... I'm not worthy."
Optimus Prime: "Nor... was I."
Because Hot Rod was supposed to be the Matrix's one and only Chosen One, not Optimus. But all that backlash to Optimus's death and Rodimus replacing him (e.g. - "Hot Rod killed Optimus!", "Rodimus SUXX!", "Rodimus is a whiny wimp! Bring back Optimus!" etc.) changed all that to make Optimus a worthy Chosen One too, which climaxed in that dumb Thirteenth Prime origin story for him.
This is less directed at just you and more me just using your post as a springboard for what I'm about to say: I feel like I should recall the things that were discussed previously in the Hall of Fame thread, that the original intents for the Thirteen have since been wildly deviated from by later writers. Namely, in the days before Vector Prime was created as a character, the Ultimate Guide book and Dreamwave's comics indicated the following about the Thirteen:
- Their ranks included Prima and The Fallen (the Liege Maximo was also intended to be one of them, but his membership wasn't yet officially confirmed, and Maccadam was merely rumored by his pub's drunken patrons to also secretly be one of the 13, though a story written at the time did lean into this notion and hinted at it possibly being more than mere rumor).
- The Fallen betrayed them when he sided with Unicron, and was sealed away with Unicron as punishment (this was pretty much chucked right out the window as soon as ROTF).
- NONE of them were Primes, because the Primes were strictly those Autobot leaders who bore the Matrix of Leadership (it is implied that the Prime dynasty was named in honor of Prima, with the first Prime of the line being someone named "Alpha Prime"). The idea of them all being Primes came about when Vector Prime was created as a separate Prime contemporary to Optimus Prime despite not being a Matrix-bearer.
- Alpha Trion was NOT one of their members (the Thirteen were all long gone by the present day, yet Alpha Trion was still around alive and kicking, and possibly might have even once been Alpha Prime himself, meaning he was supposed to have been at least one generation after the Thirteen).
The reason they were all gone and vanished from the present is because they all DIED in the ancient battle with Unicron, with The Fallen being the main exception since his being sealed allowed him to return to Cybertron in War Within: The Dark Ages (though, if Maccadam really was secretly one of the 13, then he'd also be an exception). The Fallen's betrayal may have even helped contribute to the deaths of the other Thirteen in that battle. And this battle was fought and finished before Primus started creating full populous generations of Cybertronian life, meaning the Thirteen really were born and died in literal prehistoric times, before the birth of the generation that would have included Alpha Trion.
The later introductions of Vector Prime and Nexus Prime created more and more exceptions until The Covenant of Primus book went and made ALL of them survive the battle with Unicron, which with all this now in mind is kinda nuts that Unicron didn't manage to kill any of them in that version.
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Aligned ruined everything.
Now now. Forest Lee played his part, too.
mood
This is Transformers fandom. Everything ruins everything, FOREVER.
Just when you think it's over, finished...This is Transformers fandom. Everything ruins everything, FOREVER.
...it never ends.
I keep picturing the darth vader creation scene...
The "Backstroke of the West" version makes it worth it.
Thing is I had a vague notion of who the Thirteen were when Cybertron started, but when we saw Vector Prime for the first time my thought wasn't "oh he's one of the Thirteen and he's a Prime so they all must be."
No, I just assumed he was a previous Matrix barer, some ancient Autobot leader who showed up thanks to time travel shenanigans to help out the present day heroes.
Looking back it makes sense why the people in charge of the The Lore
would make someone with a powerset as OP as Vector Prime a member of the Thirteen, but still.... there's a lot about how Hasbro (well... Rik Alvarez) fleshed the concept out that doesn't sit well with me.TF One was the first instance where I felt the concept was actually done in a way I liked, and even then their version of the Thirteen just flat out disregards A LOT of what Aligned canonized. No Optimus as the Thirteenth, no fridge'ing Solus. No melodramatic Liege Maximo/Megatronus drama. Oh, and they also gave them better designs.
So the best version of the Thirteen are, imo, a version that ignored a good chunk of their foundational lore.
Megatronus: IT'S ALL PRIMA'S FAULT! HE'S JEALOUS! HE'S HOLDING ME BACK!
Solus:
We really never realized back then just how much that Cybertron-Revenge of the Fallen era changed about the Thirteen, making them all Primes, removing The Fallen's Unicronian affiliation to make him a more generic traitor... in fact, that last one may have been why the Covenant book changed him from Judas to Othello. The ROTF version of the guy was kind of a bland "I want power because I'm greedy!" kind of traitor, so the Covenant book may have thought it was adding more substance nuance to a backstory that originally had none, by making him a tragic figure misunderstood by the others, instead of the original Dreamwave version being enticed and swayed by Unicron's power and glory.Thing is I had a vague notion of who the Thirteen were when Cybertron started, but when we saw Vector Prime for the first time my thought wasn't "oh he's one of the Thirteen and he's a Prime so they all must be."
No, I just assumed he was a previous Matrix barer, some ancient Autobot leader who showed up thanks to time travel shenanigans to help out the present day heroes.
Looking back it makes sense why the people in charge of the The Lore
Though, what's even odder is the fact that the first two Aligned novels, Exodus and Exiles, still went with that Judas-esque angle for The Fallen, depicting him as gleefully power-hungry, cunning, and ambitious, before the Covenant book came along and said "Nah, man, dude was misunderstood and just wanted to be loved. It was Maximo who was the bad egg."
Though, Exiles did still have Megatronus interested in Solus, but didn't have her reciprocate. Rather, she and Nexus were more of an item, which Megatronus was jealous of. The Covenant book then did away with Solus and Nexus being a thing to make Solus and Megatronus be a legit couple.
EDIT: Oh, and then the 2015 Robots in Disguise cartoon went back and made him maliciously evil again with no tragic elements or Unicronian affiliation, just like his ROTF depiction.
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I actually like all the lore, and how it's not at all consistent. I mean, that's mythology in a nutshell. E.g. you can't make a definitive list of all the Greek gods, which ones are considered to be the 12 Olympians, who's descended from who, who was aligned with who, who did what feats, etc. because there are numerous versions of all those tales. There are certainly some core aspects that are pretty consistent across all of them. But once you get to the more niche characters and events, you get all sorts of inconsistencies.
I kind of love that the 13 mirror those inconsistencies. It makes absolute sense that there will be different and contradictory tales about these beings, even without bringing multiverse factors into the discussion. The main argument I've seen against that idea that really holds much water is the idea that current Cybertronians would remember the 13 and know the truth, especially in instances where at least some of them are still around. I think that fails to be too big of an issue once you think about it a bit though.
First off, it assumes that Cybertronians have absolute memory precision. I don't think that's a good assumption. Computer memory and storage systems fail all the time. I think it's a huge assumption to think that being long-lived and mechanical means they can have perfect memory over millenia, much less millions of years.
Second, we definitively know better than to assume this. Kup is the clearest example of this. From his first appearance in TFTM, we saw him at times struggling to remember things, like with the inverting polarities trick. And we saw others, like Hot Rod, being dubious of some of his stories. This is entirely consistent with how TFs are generally portrayed to basically be big, metal humans. It entirely tracks that memories of what happened in the distant past are going to be fuzzy and contradictory, even for them.
So yeah, I have no issues with the contradictions and variations in the stories. And I'm good with continuing to see more variations going forward. I actually think that's part of the fun of it!
The one thing I really dislike is Optimus being one of the 13, and therefore being the chosen hero. That's mainly because I feel like this directly cuts at everything that makes Rodimus special. Like Sabrblade pointed out, it was supposed to be Rodimus that was fated to be the one who would rise up. I hate that the backlash from almost 40 years ago has caused Hasbro to back so thoroughly away from him and try to shift anything unique he had going for him over to Optimus instead. IMO, let Optimus be his own bot, without stealing from Rodimus.
I kind of love that the 13 mirror those inconsistencies. It makes absolute sense that there will be different and contradictory tales about these beings, even without bringing multiverse factors into the discussion. The main argument I've seen against that idea that really holds much water is the idea that current Cybertronians would remember the 13 and know the truth, especially in instances where at least some of them are still around. I think that fails to be too big of an issue once you think about it a bit though.
First off, it assumes that Cybertronians have absolute memory precision. I don't think that's a good assumption. Computer memory and storage systems fail all the time. I think it's a huge assumption to think that being long-lived and mechanical means they can have perfect memory over millenia, much less millions of years.
Second, we definitively know better than to assume this. Kup is the clearest example of this. From his first appearance in TFTM, we saw him at times struggling to remember things, like with the inverting polarities trick. And we saw others, like Hot Rod, being dubious of some of his stories. This is entirely consistent with how TFs are generally portrayed to basically be big, metal humans. It entirely tracks that memories of what happened in the distant past are going to be fuzzy and contradictory, even for them.
So yeah, I have no issues with the contradictions and variations in the stories. And I'm good with continuing to see more variations going forward. I actually think that's part of the fun of it!
The one thing I really dislike is Optimus being one of the 13, and therefore being the chosen hero. That's mainly because I feel like this directly cuts at everything that makes Rodimus special. Like Sabrblade pointed out, it was supposed to be Rodimus that was fated to be the one who would rise up. I hate that the backlash from almost 40 years ago has caused Hasbro to back so thoroughly away from him and try to shift anything unique he had going for him over to Optimus instead. IMO, let Optimus be his own bot, without stealing from Rodimus.