Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Ungnome

Grand Empress of the Empire of One Square Foot.
Citizen
This is about as precision as explosives can be, unfortunately. If someone is standing near someone who happens to have an exploding pager, the chances of collateral damage are high. Bombs don't discriminate.... Still it's much better than lobbing rockets at locations where you think an enemy is, knowing full well the area is also full of non-combatants, which Israel has been known to do and WAY better than specifically targeting non-combatants, as Hezbollah and Hamas seem to actually prefer to do.
 

Pale Rider

...and Hell followed with him.
Citizen
FB friend:
Hey, media: do your jobs. The pagers, walkie-talkies, fingerprint scanners, and solar panels which were rigged with explosives by Israel and then detonated en masse in Lebanon over the last two days are IEDs. You should be calling them IEDs. This was an IED attack, the same as any Taliban member would use.

And no, as usual, it was not "surgically targeted". Anyone anywhere near the person unwittingly carrying the IED could be killed, and the Israelis had no way of knowing if the device was going to be detonated in a bathroom, a school, or a crowded marketplace.
 

PrimalxConvoy

NOT a New Member.
Citizen
This is about as precision as explosives can be, unfortunately. If someone is standing near someone who happens to have an exploding pager, the chances of collateral damage are high. Bombs don't discriminate.... Still it's much better than lobbing rockets at locations where you think an enemy is, knowing full well the area is also full of non-combatants, which Israel has been known to do and WAY better than specifically targeting non-combatants, as Hezbollah and Hamas seem to actually prefer to do.

From the BBC.

"At least 20 people have been killed and more than 450 wounded by a second wave of explosions from wireless communication devices in Lebanon, the country’s health ministry says...

...Twelve people - including an eight-year-old girl and an 11-year-old boy - were killed and 2,800 others were wounded by the blasts, according to the Lebanese health minister...

...The Israeli military said about 30 projectiles crossed from Lebanon on Wednesday, sparking a fire but causing no injuries...

 

abates

unfortunate shark issues
Citizen
Did no one in Hezbollah react to the pagers exploding by immediately taking apart their other technology to make sure there weren't bombs in it?
 

Ungnome

Grand Empress of the Empire of One Square Foot.
Citizen
Look, Ideally none of the attacks should have occurred, but if they ARE going to occur this sort of attack isn't nearly as bad as randomly firing rockets indiscriminately or using high yield explosives(much bigger blast radius that what we've seen here) to take out one person. It's a tragedy that innocents have been caught in the crossfire, but, official or not, this is a war and until we humans evolve past the need to violently attack each other, I'd much prefer it be done in a targeted manner than the 'kill em all and let god sort them out' approach so commonly used by major powers and small ones alike these days. Only way I can see of making it more precise would be to use actual boots on the ground. Issue with that is it would have required Israel to send special forces INTO Lebanon to carry it out which would easily be construed by certain parties as an invasion and likely escalate things way more than this attack did.
 

Teufel

Active member
Citizen
Might want to step back over that line you just crossed Teuful.

If you and Ironbite want to get outraged over some uncharitable interpretation of my post have fun. I just fundamentally disagree with the worldview of some folks on here that Israel must be held to a unique standard of war that has never been applied to any other nation. Around 40 dead so far, at least 32 claimed by Hezbollah as its fighters. Pretty precise results. It'd be nice if no innocent people died or got hurt in war, but since that's never going to happen, I'll judge it case by case. And this particular operation has demonstrated for some folks it's not really about how many civilians are killed or how precise Israel is, because the vast majority of the dead are Hezbollah, it's just some people don't believe Israel has a right to do anything other than sit quietly and be killed by Iran and its proxy terrorist groups.


Link

As he spoke, the rumble of warplanes and large sonic booms could be heard over Beirut. “They will face a severe reckoning,” he said of Israel, adding that the attacks, which killed at least 37

The he being Nashrallah, leader of Hezbollah


From the BBC.




Why didn't you quote the part of the article saying the majority of the dead since the second wave explosions were claimed by Hezbollah as its fighters?

Hezbollah's media office on Wednesday announced the death of 13 of its fighters, including a 16-year-old boy, since the second wave of explosions.

It's weird, this random bloodthirsty imprecise IED terrorist campaign keeps killing so many Hezbollah fighters.

...The Israeli military said about 30 projectiles crossed from Lebanon on Wednesday, sparking a fire but causing no injuries...

A Hezbollah rocket hit a playground in the Golan Heights and blew up 12 Druze kids a couple months ago, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here about the rockets. That they aren't indiscriminate and don't kill civilians?
 

NovaSaber

Well-known member
Citizen
I just fundamentally disagree with the worldview of some folks on here that Israel must be held to a unique standard of war that has never been applied to any other nation.
I disagree with the claim that anyone is applying a "unique standard" different from other countries.

You'd be wrong even if you were "only" accusing specific people here of hypocrisy on the subject, but no, you actually said "never been applied".

I'll be charitable and interpret "never" as hyperbole, but even so, that means at least that you somehow believe it's uncommon for people to say things like "civilians should never be killed in military actions" in reactions to news from wars not involving Israel.
And that's just blatantly wrong. I actually remember such things being said basically every single time there was news of US soldiers killing civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan.

(The alternative would be that you're comparing what people are saying the ideal is for Israel alone (even though it's the same ideal for every country) and what actually happens for other countries. But, that would be literally using a double standard to accuse others of having a double standard.)
 

MrBlud

Well-known member
Citizen
9 out of 2,800 is pretty good as far as warfare goes. I feel like if the US managed that kill ratio for Al Queda or ISIS op; you wouldn’t have a sitting member of Congress calling them to task.

We can look at Gaza to see what the kill ratios are when *they don’t* care.
 

Teufel

Active member
Citizen
I disagree with the claim that anyone is applying a "unique standard" different from other countries.

You'd be wrong even if you were "only" accusing specific people here of hypocrisy on the subject, but no, you actually said "never been applied".

I'll be charitable and interpret "never" as hyperbole, but even so, that means at least that you somehow believe it's uncommon for people to say things like "civilians should never be killed in military actions" in reactions to news from wars not involving Israel.
And that's just blatantly wrong. I actually remember such things being said basically every single time there was news of US soldiers killing civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan.

(The alternative would be that you're comparing what people are saying the ideal is for Israel alone (even though it's the same ideal for every country) and what actually happens for other countries. But, that would be literally using a double standard to accuse others of having a double standard.)

This is exactly the kind of standard I'm talking about. If you or anyone else have expressed that fairy tale pablum in regards to other conflicts, mea culpa, I don't recall seeing it on the Allspark in the years I've been here. Civilians shouldn't be targets, but civilians will always be killed in war; that's why collateral damage is not by itself necessarily a war crime. That doesn't give anyone carte blanche or a pass to kill indiscriminately. That doesn't absolve a nation of an obligation to limit civilian deaths when possible and they're supposed to weigh the military value of targets and not be excessive.

That's why my previous post mentioned a case by case basis. Israel using AI to come up with Hamas targets in Gaza with allegedly little to no actual human confirmation before bombing them sounded like they'd essentially programmed a war crimes generator. Sabotaging equipment ordered by Hezbollah to be distributed specifically to its members, not so much.

Or in the latest example, on Friday Israel bombed an underground meeting in a Beirut suburb where a number of Hezbollah commanders presumably gathered in person because their communications equipment has been malfunctioning lately. Civilians died, but Israel wiped out Hezbollah's top military commander and dozens of other high-ranking commanders (Including a heavy toll for the Radwan Forces, Hezbollah's "special forces" who would be responsible for carrying out October 7th-style cross border raids into Israel.)


Link

Hezbollah said Ibrahim Akil, who helped establish the militant and political group's elite Radwan Force, and Ahmed Wahbi, who was in charge of Hezbollah's central training unit, were killed in the strike Friday on a densely populated suburb of the Lebanese capital Beirut.

At least 37 people were killed in total, including three children, and more than 60 injured, Lebanon's public health ministry said Saturday, according to the country's national news agency.

Hezbollah, which Washington has designated a terrorist organization, announced the deaths of 19 of its fighters, including Akil and Wahbi.



Should Israel have not bombed this meeting because Hezbollah tried to hide in a suburb? The death toll so far seems 50/50 on combatants/civilians which is high, but so was the military value of decimating Hezbollah's command structure in one hit. I don't find it militarily or morally indefensible.

But your values may just be different. I'm not a pacifist and don't think Israel obligated to stand by and let themselves be attacked if their defense harms even one civilian. I don't see the functional difference between that and suicide. By that standard Ukraine has killed civilians in the course of its self-defense so they should just pack it up and let Putin roll into Kiev. "Civilians should never be killed in military actions" is a feel-good statement completely divorced from the reality of any and every war that has been and will be fought.
 

Pocket

jumbled pile of person
Citizen
What concerns me is that it happened outside of Israel's borders. The risk of getting killed by terrorists or your own government is just one of those things Israel's citizens have been living with on and off for over a generation now, but Lebanon? Last I checked, they weren't interested in getting involved.

I mean, hell, the last time I can recall a foreign war resulted in the deaths of American civilians, we responded by joining the war on the side opposing those responsible just so we could kick their asses. And it didn't even happen on US soil!
 

MrBlud

Well-known member
Citizen
I’m sure Lebanon will be much more indignant about Israel getting explosives into Lebanon via pagers; than they have been about Hezbollah getting explosives into Israel via rockets.

They just use Lebanon as a staging area because Israel (usually) can’t strike back without open warfare.

Until they could via an intelligence coup and now it’s injured Pikachu face (and body).
 

Thylacine 2000

Well-known member
Citizen
What concerns me is that it happened outside of Israel's borders. The risk of getting killed by terrorists or your own government is just one of those things Israel's citizens have been living with on and off for over a generation now, but Lebanon? Last I checked, they weren't interested in getting involved.

Where did you check that led you to conclude LEBANON doesn't know from the risk of getting killed by terrorists or their own government?

Beirut had been known as "the Paris of the Middle East" until it was colonized and gutted by Palestinian and Iranian militias and hit with multiple rounds of civil wars. A Hezbollah arms depot blew up the port of Beirut in summer 2020. Hezbollah has been bombing Israel every single day since they joined the celebrations on Oct. 8th, including bombing a soccer field and killing 12 Israeli Arab kids which nobody in the world cared about because no Jews were involved. There have been easily 5 or 6 "major" rounds of conflict between Israel and Lebanon in the last 20 years when Hezbollah bombs Israel or kidnaps Israelis so the IDF blows up their neighborhood. Israel invaded and occupied Lebanon in the '80s. Lebanon invaded Israel in the '40s. The country has been a ruin for decades, they are all too aware of the risks.
 

SHIELD Agent 47

Active member
Citizen
Beirut had been known as "the Paris of the Middle East" until it was colonized and gutted by Palestinian and Iranian militias and hit with multiple rounds of civil wars.
That's not "colonialism", you double-standard hypocrite.
A Hezbollah arms depot blew up the port of Beirut in summer 2020.
What kind of misinformation is this? The Beirut explosion of 2020 was because a cache of imported ammonium nitrate sat unprotected for years after the authorities confiscated it.
 

Thylacine 2000

Well-known member
Citizen
That's not "colonialism", you double-standard hypocrite.
As the kids say, "lol, lmao even." This reminds me of those old videos of Gerald Ford saying the Soviet Union was not controlling Communist Poland while the newscasters just gawked at him. One country sending a giant army and political commissars into another to take over key government functions for the sake of a larger geopolitical empire is still very much colonialism even if the ones doing it are on the right side of a paper bag test.

What kind of misinformation is this? The Beirut explosion of 2020 was because a cache of imported ammonium nitrate sat unprotected for years after the authorities confiscated it.
Ammonium nitrate, long known to be used by Hezbollah to make explosives, with Hezbollah threatening and blocking anyone from investigating the explosion.

Many officials in Beirut say privately that much of the shipment was stolen, Reuters said...

According to an unsourced assessment publicized on Israel’s Channel 13 news last August, Hezbollah may have planned to use the ammonium nitrate stockpile against Israel in a “Third Lebanon War"....

In 2019 reports in Israel claimed that the Mossad had tipped off European intelligence agencies about Hezbollah storing caches of ammonium nitrate for use in bombs in London, Cyprus and elsewhere. The Channel 13 report noted that “the material that exploded in the port is not new to Nasrallah and Hezbollah.”

It detailed Hezbollah’s previous connections to ammonium nitrate, including incidents in Germany and the UK, both widely reported at the time, in which its agents were reportedly found with substantial quantities of the material. In London in 2015, following a Mossad tip-off, British intelligence found four Hezbollah operatives with 3 tons of ammonium nitrate held in flour sacks, the TV report said, citing foreign reports. A similar process led to the discovery in Germany of Hezbollah operatives with enough ammonium nitrate “to blow up a city,” the report said. Germany subsequently banned Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.




The most vociferous [calling for removing the investigating judge] has been Hezbollah, even though Bitar has not charged anyone from the party. Just three days before Thursday’s clashes, Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah accused the judge of politically targeting officials and called for an “honest and transparent judge”. Last month, a senior Hezbollah security official reportedly threatened Judge Bitar in his office.

“It’s clear that Bitar has hit too close to home, but we don’t know why Hezbollah, in particular, is leading this campaign against him,” Majzoub said. “They keep saying they’re singled out, but none of the officials Bitar has called for investigation are Hezbollah officials.”
 

Dekafox

Fabulously Foxy Dragon
Citizen

tl;dr Iranian hacktivist group claims that Vidisco, who provides security scanners for the borders of many nations, have back doors that Israel took advantage of when getting the sabotaged pagers passed through customs etc, and that they have proof of them working with the Israeli government on that taken from Vidisco computers. They have yet to provide such. All we know for sure at this point is that Vidisco is actively compromised by a hacker group, so that much is true.

7bb67c7a7bd7e238.png


I hadn't shared this before as it is all far from verified(other than Vidisco networks having been confirmed today to be compromised), and so far they've been keeping it quiet. If the theory of it being a "Use it or lose it" decision on popping the pagers last week is correct, and this accusation is true, then Vidisco discovering the compromise could have been what triggered it. Again, none of this is confirmed yet other than Vidisco was hacked by Handala, and given Handala has Iranian connections, they could be making up the connection and throwing just enough real data out there to confuse things.
 

PrimalxConvoy

NOT a New Member.
Citizen
That's not "colonialism", you double-standard hypocrite.

What kind of misinformation is this? The Beirut explosion of 2020 was because a cache of imported ammonium nitrate sat unprotected for years after the authorities confiscated it.

On 4 August 2020, a large amount of ammonium nitrate stored at the Port of Beirut in the capital city of Lebanon exploded...A cargo of 2,750 tonnes of the substance (equivalent to around 1.1 kilotons of TNT) had been stored in a warehouse without proper safety measures for the previous six years after having been confiscated by Lebanese authorities from the abandoned ship...

...Following the explosion, there were suspicions regarding Hezbollah's involvement due to allegations that the explosion occurred at a site storing Hezbollah's weapons. Hezbollah denied these allegations but has been actively involved in demonstrations against the investigation into the explosion...

(Source: - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Beirut_explosion )

So far, there's no concrete evidence to link it to Hezbollah but they seem to have tried to impede any investigations linked to it.

I couldn't find any proof of Palestinian or Iranian colonialism in Lebanon, but it seems France and perhaps other Western countries did something similar?


 
Last edited:

Teufel

Active member
Citizen
Link

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu tells the Lebanese people to take Israel’s warning seriously and says they will be able to return home after the fighting is over.

“Israel’s war is not with you,” he says in a video statement. “It’s with Hezbollah.”

“For too long, Hezbollah has been using you as human shields,” says Netanyahu. “It placed rockets in your living rooms and missiles in your garage. Those rockets and missiles are aimed directly at our cities, directly at our citizens.”

“To defend our people against Hezbollah strikes, we must take out these weapons,” he says.

“Starting this morning, the IDF has warned you to get out of harm’s way,” continues the premier as Israel carries out intensive airstrikes across southern Lebanon.

“I urge you – take this warning seriously. Don’t let Hezbollah endanger your lives and the lives of your loved ones. Don’t let Hezbollah endanger Lebanon.”

“Please, get out of harm’s way now,” Netanyahu urges. “Once our operation is finished, you can come back safely to your homes.”

Evacuate your homes so we may bomb your homes then you can return to your homes is a message that needs a little workshopping.

Although some Israelis have gone with the "you get what you deserve" message about blowing up houses so I guess it could be worse (granted Bennett's not in any active political or military office.)


Israel has been pretty open about targeting homes which allegedly store weapons. They claimed they made phone calls, announcements, hacked radio stations to broadcast warnings, etc which they've done in the past so I can believe it but this sure seems like an awfully quick turn of events. Kind of skeptical they gave much time to actually evacuate and just did it so they could say they did regardless of how it turned out. Regardless of the merits if you wanted to purposefully rollout a campaign to further tank public support for your cause I'm not sure you could do better than "we're blowing up the houses."

Link

Widespread Israeli airstrikes targeting Hezbollah in southern Lebanon killed at least 492 people Monday and injured over 1,645 more, Beirut said, as Israel cautioned that strikes against the group would expand and Lebanese civilians were warned to flee areas where the Iran-backed terror group was thought to be hiding weapons.

The IDF said the air force was targeting homes where “rockets, drones and missiles” were emplaced by Hezbollah, and repeatedly urged civilians in Lebanon’s Beqaa Valley to flee from homes where such weapons were stored. It said many of the dead were Hezbollah members.

The dead and wounded included women and children, the ministry said. There was no immediate comment from Hezbollah on casualties within the terror group, which has suffered heavy losses in recent days.

The health ministry added that 35 children and 58 women were among those killed.

Honestly I'm surprised it took Hezbollah so long to stop saying if any of their fighters died. Hamas stayed silent about their losses and it paid big PR dividends. It's definitely hard not to be skeptical of the IDF saying they're blowing up houses but don't worry the dead are Hezbollah, especially with how quick this came. If it holds 80% of the dead from these strikes are not women or children that would be eyebrow raising but not sure how much to read into that so early. It's a stark contrast to Hamas' health ministry in which every announcement gave the impression few men were actually in Gaza.

In a press conference, IDF Spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari noted that some videos of strikes depicted secondary explosions, pointing to these as evidence of Hezbollah weapons stores.

“The sights that are now seen in southern Lebanon are Hezbollah’s weapons exploding inside houses. Every home we struck, there are rockets, drones, missiles, which were intended to kill Israeli civilians,” Hagari said, urging civilians in Lebanon’s Beqaa Valley to flee from homes where Hezbollah has been storing weapons.

Every home? Every single home? I hope they have more evidence than just secondary explosions. Granted the Israelis seem to have a shockingly higher amount of detailed intelligence on Lebanon/Hezbollah than they did Gaza/Hamas. If they've pinpointed Hezbollah assets to this level it really once again brings into stark contrast how they didn't know jive about Gaza and pretty much everyone in the government, military, and intelligence services responsible for that is still in power.
 

Teufel

Active member
Citizen
While another one of Tehran's proxies gets dismantled piece by piece it seems like the IRGC has forbidden use of all communication devices to look for bombs and might be purging its ranks in paranoid mole hunts.

Link

Iran's elite Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) has ordered all members to stop using any type of communication devices after thousands of pagers and walkie-talkies used by its Hezbollah allies in Lebanon blew up in deadly attacks last week, two senior Iranian security officials told Reuters.

One of the security officials said a large-scale operation is underway by the IRGC to inspect all devices, not just communication equipment. He said most of these devices were either homemade or imported from China and Russia.

Iran was concerned about infiltration by Israeli agents, including Iranians on Israel's payroll and a thorough investigation of personnel has already begun, targeting mid and high-ranking members of the IRGC, added the official, who declined to be identified because of the sensitivity of the matter.

"This includes scrutiny of their bank accounts both in Iran and abroad, as well as their travel history and that of their families," the security official said.

Iran's military uses a range of encrypted communication devices, including walkie-talkies, for secure communication, said the first Iranian source. While specific models and brands might vary, Iranian military communications equipment was often developed domestically or sourced from a combination of local and foreign suppliers, he said.

He said Iran's armed forces have stopped using pagers for over two decades.

Tehran has developed its own military-grade radio transmissions through its defence industry to avoid reliance on foreign imports, especially due to Western sanctions imposed on Tehran over its nuclear program, he added.

However, in the past, Iran has imported communication devices from countries such as China and Russia and even Japan.
 


Top Bottom