Sonic The Hedgehog

[Zamuel]

Reentering the Sonic fandom has been...interesting. I've had a very "outside looking in" perspective on things but even in that I find my perspective is somewhat unique. While a longtime fan of the series, I never owned a Genesis or Game Gear. My first Sega system was the Dreamcast. There was a post upthread about Sega's troubles from YouTube user The Golden Bolt but looking at his channel I saw something else that stood out:

I played Sonic Adventure on the Dreamcast in 1999. I distinctly remember that while I may have liked the graphics for various games at the time (and later), the trailers for SA1 were one of the few times I was awed by a videogame. While both games have their strong points, I unashamedly like SA1 more than SA2. But in the vein of returning to the franchise I discovered things I didn't know until recently. Like the fact that SA1 had such a terrible port. Or that SA2: Battle was the highest selling non first party game on the GameCube so simply more people have played SA2 than SA1. It's a bit of a new reference point when I read or watch retrospectives.

Returning to the franchise has also put me in the mindset of rapidly absorbing information--something I haven't done in a while for a fictional work. Some people in other threads know I tend to miss a lot of things and am often out of the loop on shows and movies. In this short time since the Sonic 2 movie I've watched all of the Sonic Boom show despite having other series I've never finished.

 

[CoffeeHorse]

My feelings are weird. I played SA2 more by miles (being able to replay the story without starting a new file undoubtedly helped), but I had a vague feeling like I enjoyed SA1 more when I did play it. SA2 was more refined in countless ways, but I think SA1's levels have more personality. Sonic's levels have an acts structure like the classic games, but without a gameplay break between them. Each level is a series of scenes specific to the theme, not just a generic Sonic level with different textures slapped on it each time. City Escape is the only level in SA2 that really has that kind of personality, and I suspect that's one of the reasons (among admittedly many) it stands out to much.

Big the Cat hurt me though. His playthrough took me four hours the first time. Nobody warned me.

 

[Shadewing]

Very first time I played SA1 I got stupidly lucky on Big's Boss Fight. Very first cast, I catch and hook froggy. Over in a matter of seconds. Never managed to do that feat again.

 

[CoffeeHorse]

I'm convinced it's just luck. People offer completely contradictory instructions for what you're supposed to do with the controller to hook Froggy, and it all might just be superstition.

 

[Zamuel]

Big's gameplay really brings down SA1. The main issue is whether any given person disliked it enough to feel it was worth it to also lose out on Tails and Amy's gameplay. Especially since I feel the Knuckles and Gamma/mech style were worse in SA2. Since I liked the Adventure Fields and mild RPG elements, the tighter narrative structure of SA2 actually felt like a downgrade (though more people liked it).

City Escape is interesting in that, despite the things I liked about SA1's levels, it was a bit of a masterpiece. While I liked SA1's overall game intro movie more, City Escape is a vastly superior first level to Emerald Coast.

 

[CoffeeHorse]

I liked the Adventure Fields in concept. As far as level design goes, they're pretty well thought out places. And they gave us context that cutscenes alone just don't provide. Everything is a little more meaningful when you know exactly where you are and how you got there and why. SA2 did a pretty good job of that with cutscenes but there are a few "Where the heck is Knuckles now?" oddities.

My only problem with the Adventure Fields is the objectives are so disconnected from the narrative. Keys just fall from the sky for no in-story reason. Suddenly you're heading into the sewer for no in-story reason. I can understand that they wanted more gameplay between the levels but it detracts from the immersion the Adventure Fields otherwise provide. I think they would be more fondly remembered without the nonsense.

City Escape is the masterpiece of 3D Sonic level design. It's broken up into sections, alternating between full speed sections and platforming sections. The speed sections get room to breathe, and the platforming prevents monotony instead of preventing us from building momentum. There are very few sections where you can launch yourself to your doom because the homing attack failed to register the intended target even though you were perfectly aiming right at it. And of course, there's the truck.

 

[Sabrblade]

Gamma's gameplay in SA1 was so fun. For SA2, they neutered it. Playing as Tails and Eggman is a complete joke.

 

[CoffeeHorse]

I didn't notice that much difference. I didn't hate the Tails and Eggman levels.

I dislike their second fight though. I don't think I've ever gotten through it without dying at least once. I could not find a strategy that worked reliably.

 

[LBD "Nytetrayn"]

The mechs move a bit clunkier, as one might expect, and I don't think there's a time limit involved (which was always weird anyway, but hey, video games).

I'll just say I liked both, while recognizing their differences.

 

[Zamuel]

I saw it as three issues. First was the removal of the time limit. Admittedly the least issue, it was fun to race against the (admittedly generous) time limt. Second, the chunkier mechs in tighter corridors made gameplay feel more clunky. And third, whatever that beeping noise they replaced the laser sound with was incredibly grating. It's the combination of the issues instead of one thing and the second point is technically two issues in one. Certainly not unplayable but it is a concern.

 

[Sabrblade]

Gamma can jump reasonably well, hover great distances in a gradual descent, aim his gun in a wide range of directions without affecting his forward momentum, and even convert into a wheeled formation to get to places faster on the ground.

Tails and Eggman's mechs can barely jump to save their lives, hover pathetically for only two seconds in a straight line, only aim their guns pointed straight ahead (the entire mech has to change its direction in order to aim the gun in any other direction, thus ruining any forward momentum you had going), and have no wheeled configuration to help with the super slow pacing of their steps (outside of Tails' single car level).

 

[CoffeeHorse]

I guess I didn't mind the clunkiness because for me Gamma is kinda too fast. That would normally be a good thing, but his levels are so short as it is.

 

[Sabrblade]

Gamma's unaltered gameplay would have made a world of difference in Tails and Eggman's much longer SA2 levels.

Especially in Eternal Engine. *shudders*

 

[Sabrblade]

Also, Gamma was already pretty slow on his feet. He had his wheeled mode to pick up the pace, but it took a very specific efforts to trigger its conversion, and every jump would cancel it out, automatically reverting him to his slow-walking bipedal form.

Tails and Eggman, meanwhile, were even slower.

 

[CoffeeHorse]

I definitely played a different game. I didn't hate Eternal Engine.

 

[Zamuel]

Something I've been contemplating is that since the third Sonic movie will presumably have elements of Sonic Adventure 2, how much will be changed? Moreover, how will people react to those changes? I have a feeling they'll change a number of superficial things that the fans will complain about but keep the core plot.

While I started thinking about this after the movie, it reignited since I'm currently watching Sonic X and just finished the Adventure 1 & 2 arcs. While I know the movie won't be the same as Sonic X's take, it is interesting to note that the arc was six episodes which conveniently winds up being two hours.

 

[Confuzor]

They'll probably combine the DeathEgg and Space Colony Ark. I doubt They'll blow up the moon.

 

[Sabrblade]

I doubt they'll also kill off Maria, since that would be the murder of a child in a family movie. But, they could use her being alive to the story's benefit if they wanted to. Like, in they could have it be that Shadow and Maria were still childhood friends, but in this version, instead of her being gunned down by soldiers, she could be merely taken away by them, and have Shadow merely believe that she was killed as the motivation for his vengeance.

Then, as the movie continues, we find out through a subplot with Tom and Maddie that Maria is actually alive and all grown up, living and working as a doctor or a veterinarian or something. The two of them find her and convince her to come with them so that she might be able to get Shadow to stop his machinations of world-ending revenge. But by the time they do so, it becomes too late for them to take Maria to the space colony to see Shadow, leaving it up to Sonic, Tails and Knuckles to stop him by themselves.

But at the end of the movie, after the final battle is over and won, and after Shadow has his real memories back about his real promise to Maria, when he falls to the Earth like in the game, this time Super Sonic could choose to fly down after him and save his life in the end. Shadow would be unconscious and brought back to Earth for medical treatment. He would then awaken to find that the doctor who is treating him would be none other than the grown-up Maria. And after all these years the two would finally reunite and reconcile in a tender happy ending moment.

 

[ZakuConvoy]

Well, if Jim Carrey really isn't coming back, that kind of changes what they can do. I DO think they're going to change LARGE parts of Shadow's backstory for the movie. The movies just have a very different setup than the rest of the franchise.

I think Maria, exactly as she was in the Adventure games, won't be around. We MIGHT get a special government agent assigned to keep a eye on Shadow named Maria, maybe as comic relief. Or a scientist studying Shadow for the government that Shadow grows attached to. That MIGHT be HIS "Donut Lord". But, most likely I think Shadow's "Maria" in the movies will end up being...the rest of the Hedgehog race, since they've at least hinted that the other Hedgehogs are wiped out. Shadow MIGHT be upset to learn about that.

As for the villain....I know *I* want Metal Sonic to show up. And having Shadow and Metal in the same movie WOULD allow them to do a "wrongly accused of crimes" plot. It could be a old Robotnik fail-safe that activates on it's own. Just a bunch of different Metal Sonic designs, from the original from CD, to Metal Overlord from Heroes would be enough for me. Basically, just do the Brotherhood of Metallix from the Fleetway Comics, but with designs from all the games. Which COULD feed into some themes about "brotherhood" that the third movie COULD have.

But...I have to wonder if they'll bring in Chaos from Adventure 1. Revealing more about the Chaos Emeralds would be a natural way to escalate things.

Here's some thoughts I had about it a while back:

You know, for Shadow in Sonic 3, we kind of have a set up we've never had before. In these movies, for years, Sonic's never met another member of his own kind. He was even raised by another species. I could totally see him...at least WANTING to have Shadow be his big brother.

Not sure if Shadow in this version would be full of exposition dumps and LORE or not. He'd probably be our only chance to explore what happened to the hedgehog tribe in these movies and see what their culture was like. I could see him being VERY different in this version. Maybe, still considering himself the Ultimate Lifeform, but moreso the Ultimate Hedgehog Warrior or something. Maybe he's upset with Sonic for not "earning" his power the way hedgehogs are usually supposed to?

For some reason, I get the feeling it might kind of depend on what the plot ends up being for the third movie. But...I could see Donut Lord and Pretzel Lady getting ready to have a baby and Sonic being afraid that he won't be a part of their family anymore after that. And...then Shadow comes in and they both kind of rile each other up and bring out the worst in each other because of both of their own hang ups.

 

[Sabrblade]

Well, if Jim Carrey really isn't coming back,

I have a feeling the filmmakers are going to try everything in their power to get him to come back for one final outing, even if that means finally letting him play Fat Eggman and filming all of his scenes in front of a studio green screen.