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[Fenix Twilight]

That's like... Exactly my head canon for him, I never liked Liege Maximo for his name as Jhiaxus was Liege Centuro it's clearly a rank, so to me he was Maximo Prime (or maybe just Maximo) and when he created his Cybertronian Empire he discarded the prime title and renamed himself.

It feels almost like the BW Darksyde situation, except Furman named him himself.

 

[LBD "Nytetrayn"]

(or maybe just Maximo)

Hell yeah!

 

[Sabrblade]

Based on how Furman also used the word "Maximo" in Reaching the Omega Point as part of Antagony's rank of "Herald Maximo" to denote her status as the highest of all Heralds of Shokaract, I get the sense that the "Maximo" in "Liege Maximo" was likewise not a name but a rank. The guy was also often referred to as "the Liege Maximo", as if to refer to him by a title and rank rather than a name (as in, he was the highest of all Lieges in the Cybertronian Empire), like how Jhiaxus was known as "the Liege Centuro" (likely dervied from the Roman army commander rank of "Centurion").

Had the Marvel G2 comics been allowed to continue properly instead of wrapping up so hastily that Furman had to later write "Alignment" to give the Liege Maximo cliffhanger some degree of closure, it's possible Furman would have given the Liege Maximo a proper name in the proceeding comic stories yet to come. Or, had Furman gotten to introduce the character in the Dreamwave G1 comics before they too went under, he might have revealed his name then.

And, if Furman had gotten to flesh out more of the original mythology of the Thirteen Original Transformers in said Dreamwave comics, it would have interesting to see how they would have been handled as not being Primes at all (in contrast to how Forest Lee later declared them all to be Primes in his Fun Pub comics). The most that's known about what Furman had planned before Dreamwave went under was that the War Within: Age of Wrath comics would have revealed Grimlock (of all bots) to be a direct descendant of the Thirteen Original Transformers.

That is indeed Grimlock in a Seeker body, yes.

 

[LordGigaIce]

Based on how Furman also used the word "Maximo" in Reaching the Omega Point as part of Antagony's rank of "Herald Maximo" to denote her status as the highest of all Heralds of Shokaract, I get the sense that the "Maximo" in "Liege Maximo" was likewise not a name but a rank. The guy was also often referred to as "the Liege Maximo", as if to refer to him by a title and rank rather than a name (as in, he was the highest of all Lieges in the Cybertronian Empire), like how Jhiaxus was known as "the Liege Centuro" (likely dervied from the Roman army commander rank of "Centurion").

All of that is part of I would have liked Liege Maximo as The Fallen. Not only would it keep the narrative more straightforward by condensing the "evil" of the group into one poetic turncoat but you could easily write that "Liege Maximo" wasn't his name either. So "Liege Maximo," "The Fallen," both titles would imply mystery.

Alas at this point "Maximo" is pretty much confirmed as the character's name, which is fine. It still works with Transformers' preferences for pseudo-Latin.

The most that's known about what Furman had planned before Dreamwave went under was that the War Within: Age of Wrath comics would have revealed Grimlock (of all bots) to be a direct descendant of the Thirteen Original Transformers.

Of course it's Grimlock

 

[lastmaximal]

I've entertained the idea of Liege Maximo being or becoming The Fallen and/or vice versa. First, it maintains the absence of a real name, where the closest thing that can be dug up is a rank. Second, the way they were written in the Covenant made them feel a bit redundant anyway. Third, no silly Megatronus name.

 

[Sabrblade]

Ever since IDW1 coined it, I've felt that "Mortilus" would have been a decent name for The Fallen if he really had to have a known one before he fell.

And ever since I got to thinking about and extrapolating what Furman might have originally had in mind for the Thirteen when he first came up with them, I've become okay with there being both The Fallen and the Liege Maximo as two evil guys on the team because it seems like the four original members Furman mentioned in The Ultimate Guide seemed to all have ties to a different faction that would come to exist in the present day of Dreamwave G1:

• Prima - Autobots
• Liege Maximo - Decepticons
• The Fallen - Unicron
• Maccadam - Neutrals

Prior to things like TF: Energon and Universe 2003, the Decepticons and Unicron were always presented as two separate evils who didn't always play nice with each other, so it seems like Furman was trying to reflect that by having one evil 13er openly betray the others to join Unicron's side, while another evil 13er kept his devious deeds more to himself in secretly establishing the foundation that would later lead to the formation of the Decepticons.

 

[LordGigaIce]

And then RotF made The Fallen "the first Decepticon" which Aligned later ran with in RiD '15.

Even TF One leaned into it despite making Megatronus more heroic by having D-16 fanboy over him and use his name and likeness for his new identity and faction.

So now Megatronus/The Fallen is probably firmly entrenched as a Decepticon or at least an inspiration for them, and Liege Maximo is... well... Loki I guess.

That was actually a thing I like about TF One's Maximo design. They scaled way back on the Loki "homage" for LM, and it's for the better.

 

[Sabrblade]

And then RotF made The Fallen "the first Decepticon"

Thanks a lot, Bay!

which Aligned later ran with

Thanks a lot, Alvarez!

 

[lastmaximal]

Was "The Fallen" being the first Decepticon in that benighted movie script (or whatever it had), or in Furman's tie-in fiction?

Anyway, I tend to avoid crossovers with the 13 and Guiding Hand, as I like having multiple pantheons and belief systems going. The most I've done is change Amalgamous Prime to Adaptus because the former is a bit too unwieldy as a name. (Also side eyeing "Alchemist Prime", but that's easy enough to faux-Latin into Alchemus).

 

[Steevy Maximus]

That is indeed Grimlock in a Seeker body, yes.

Dino-jet Grimlock WHEN, Hasbro?!

 

[lastmaximal]

Yeah, the Stege one with a headswap would be a good quick thing.

Like, go ahead and add it to the comic book capsule thing. Along with a War Within Op and Megs, and a damn Sunstorm already.

 

[Sabrblade]

Was "The Fallen" being the first Decepticon in that benighted movie script (or whatever it had), or in Furman's tie-in fiction?

It seems to have originated from the planning stages of ROTF's story production, changing The Fallen from betraying the Thirteen to join Unicron into him betraying the Primes to seize the power of the Matrix for himself (and subsequently becoming the Palpatine to Megatron's Anakin, inspiring him to start the Decepticon movement). The IDW prequel comics for ROTF--a mini-series titled "Defiance"--were written by Chris Mowry based on an early draft of the movie's script. Furman had little to do with it in this case.

Just goes to show how little newer creatives understood the original intent behind what Furman had set up for these characters (The Fallen was the 13er who joined Unicron, while the Liege Maximo was supposed to be the progenitor of the Decepticons).

Anyway, I tend to avoid crossovers with the 13 and Guiding Hand, as I like having multiple pantheons and belief systems going. The most I've done is change Amalgamous Prime to Adaptus because the former is a bit too unwieldy as a name.

Yeah, I wasn't too fond of AVP including Solomus and Epistermus into the multiversal Thirteen roster, neither.

(Also side eyeing "Alchemist Prime", but that's easy enough to faux-Latin into Alchemus).

Thank you! Ever since that Exiles book first came out and revealed the name of "Alchemist Prime", I had always bafflingly wondered why it wasn't "Alchemus Prime" instead.

 

[lastmaximal]

Idk about newer creatives not understanding Furman's intent per se, as it seems more likely they're just following the newer Aligned-onward plan for these characters (which may have done the misunderstanding, or just some disregarding).

 

[LordGigaIce]

For The Fallen specifically I can see Bay and his writers going "ok so this Fallen guy's a Decepticon?"

"Well no. You see..."

"You said he was a badguy. All Transformers badguys are Decepticons."

"That's not actually the ca..."

"Decepticon!"

I don't remember if they specifically call The Fallen the first Decepticon in the movie (and I'm not inclined to rewatch it to check) but they had him bossing around Megatron, was clearly commanding the Decepticons, and the prequel comics make it clear he pushes Megatron to found the Decepticons, as Sabrblade pointed out.

Joking aside, I think Bay and the writers just wanted to keep things neat and tidy and so The Fallen became Decepticon-affiliated because the bad guys were all Decepticons back then.

Aligned all but solidified The Fallen as either the first Decepticon, or at least Megatron's inspiration. Which left Liege Maximo with nothing to do but be Loki to try and siphon off some MCU goodwill.

 

[Sabrblade]

Idk about newer creatives not understanding Furman's intent per se, as it seems more likely they're just following the newer Aligned-onward plan for these characters (which may have done the misunderstanding, or just some disregarding).

Where do you think Aligned got it from?

I don't remember if they specifically call The Fallen the first Decepticon in the movie (and I'm not inclined to rewatch it to check)

I don't believe it did. But I do remember the marketing for the movie pushing that idea.

Joking aside, I think Bay and the writers just wanted to keep things neat and tidy and so The Fallen became Decepticon-affiliated because the bad guys were all Decepticons back then.

Even before ROTF rolled around, there was also Hasbro trying to push a trend at the time that Unicron himself was Decepticon-affiliated, with both Energon and Universe 2003 treating the Decepticons as Unicron's faction, as well as the Cybertron Deluxe class Unicron toy and the Universe 2008 reissue of the Armada Supreme class Unicron toy both being sold in Decepticon packaging. It seems during the Aaron Archer Era as a whole, there was a general attempt to streamline the bad guys of Transformers all under a single unified banner of Decepticonism.

Subtle bits in both Dreamwave G1/The Ultimate Guide and the Aligned backstory even hinted that the Decepticons came about because of some of Unicron's lingering evil having tainted the Kaon region of Cybertron in ancient times, almost insinuating that Unicron was the faction's true originator.