RFK Jr.'s Latest Tweet Is Being Widely Interpreted As A Nazi Dog Whistle
A tweet from the Democratic presidential candidate's account included the numbers 14 and 88 close together, evoking a known hate symbol.
Anti-Semitism
- Thread starter Teufel
- Start date
What's the cause of anti-Semitism. The Jewish people I know look Caucasian.
Really I would not know someone was Jewish unless they told me.
So why the hate?
Really I would not know someone was Jewish unless they told me.
So why the hate?
The Irish look Caucasian, the Italians look Caucasian. Didn't stop bigoted Americans from hating them back in the day. It's the culture that the haters target in this case, not their skin color. The cultural hatred dates back over a millennia. It's ingrained itself in Euro-Christian culture to a horrifying degree and while things have improved overall, we have quite a way to go.
True enough, but a good chunk of the issues in the US and Europe stem from that, at least originally. The dynamics of antisemitism in the Muslim world flows from a somewhat different direction, though at the core it ALWAYS boils down to 'fear of the other' and scapegoating, both usually propagated by those seeking or trying to retain power. Jews were an easy target by both groups for sticking to their original beliefs instead of converting to the new paridigm that had gained power.
Why would Euro-Christians hate Jews when the whole Old Testament is the Torrah, Jewish?
And the Jews are God's chosen people according to the Christian Bible.
Euro-Christians are the beneficiaries of Jesus Christ, who is also Jewish, being the Savior of the Jews and thus the entire world.
bc jesus is not the messiah according to judaism, and also the christian church blamed jews for "murdering jesus" for friggin' centuries to justify christian persecution of jews.
this is despite the fact that according to christianity, jesus had to die for our sins, but blatant hypocrisy like that has never stopped the power-hungry, decrepit old bastards running the church from telling their followers which "heretics" they wa- I mean, "god" wants them to murder.
this is despite the fact that according to christianity, jesus had to die for our sins, but blatant hypocrisy like that has never stopped the power-hungry, decrepit old bastards running the church from telling their followers which "heretics" they wa- I mean, "god" wants them to murder.
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Atheists and Agnostics don't accept Jesus as the Messiah either, yet they are not persecuted or victims of hate crimes for it.
The Romans crucified Jesus, but there's no anti-Romanism.
So, what people don't want to admit is that, "They don't really know or remember. " It's a case of the Hatfields and McCoys; they don't know why they hate each other or even why they are still fighting each other. They just do it out of habit and the reason is forgotten to history. Is that about right?
How can you solve anti-Semitism if you don't even know the reason for it?
Atheists weren't scapegoated for centuries the way the Jewish population was. Atheism/Agnosticism also don't have cultural traditions that could be pointed to as 'different' given that most people in those camps can simply adopt the predominant cultural rituals even if they don't believe in the reasoning behind them. Openly admitting your Atheism COULD result in persecution though, and still does in some communities, especially if you previously professed belief in the major religion of your area. Apostasy is considered a capital offense in some areas.
As far as the Roman thing..... You can blame Constatine for that one. The Roman emperor converting to Christianity kinda made it easy to smooth over the fact that the Romans were actually the ones to carry out the crucifixion.
I think the closest you're gonna find to Jewish persecution is the way the Romani people were/are treated. There are a lot of parallels between the two groups, even if culturally and religiously they are QUITE distinct.
First, Christianity and Islam both have their share of bigots who hate everyone who doesn't belong to their own religion. (Other religions have people like this too, but not nearly as many.)
And the people who are most-hated by any Christian who's a generic religious bigot and not specifically an anti-Semite actually tend to be either atheists or pagans.
(Or Satanists, but they're kind of a deliberate lighting rod for it so I'm excluding them.)
Actually that goes for racism too; most generic "hate everyone not of their own race" racists hate black people more than they hate Jews. Jews are only the most-hated by those who are specifically anti-Semites.
And people who are specifically anti-Semitic tend to be people who believe anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.
There actually is (some anti-Catholic conspiracy theories link it to the Roman Empire), but the fact that there's not nearly as much of it as there is anti-Semitism is related to what people have been saying.
The gospels go out of their way to portray the Roman authorities as sympathetically as possible and to put as much blame on the Jewish authorities as possible, because they were written by people who were either pro-Roman themselves or so afraid of being perceived as anti-Roman that they deliberately scapegoated whoever else they could.
"WHAT'S THE CAUSE OF ANTISEMITISM?"
Jews maintain their distinct religious, ethnic, and cultural identity while living among larger, more powerful groups.
That's ultimately it.
The Hellenist and Roman empires all tried to force Jews to abandon their traditions and their belief in the one God and embrace polytheism - and were real mad when the Jews refused and fought back. After Rome destroyed Judea in 70 CE, the Jews were then dispersed into other territories and nations - and those in turn grew suspicious and hateful towards a population of immigrants who lived among them but would not be exactly like them, who would instead live in ways that suggested that the preferred beliefs of those other nations might actually be wrong. This hatred was there before the development of today's countries and political ideologies, and so it was absorbed into them and shaped them as they developed - hence the modern stripes of antisemitism we see in Europe, in the Middle East, among the far right and the far left.
As outsiders-among-us, already associated with what-we-are-not, the Jews became targets for ALL subsequent hatreds. In about ten seconds, you can find examples of people blaming Jews for inventing or controlling all of the following:
* Communism AND Capitalism
* Socialism AND Fascism
* Leftist Globalism AND Right-wing Nationalism
* Immigration AND Immigration bans
* Miscegenation AND Racism
* Sexual repression AND Pornography
* Criminals AND Police
"SHOULDN'T CHRISTIANS HAVE LIKED JEWS BECAUSE OF BIBLE / JESUS?"
Christianity, and to a lesser extent Islam, fully embraced for centuries the concept of supersessionism, also known as replacement theology. The idea was that Judaism was old, incomplete, and inferior, something to be corrected and replaced and at all times utterly dominated by the newer culture. Mainstream Christian teachings utterly loathed Jews for centuries and were largely oriented around inventing new crimes to accuse them of (ritual child sacrifice, poisoning wells, causing plagues, etc). The notion that "the Jews killed Christ and should be condemned for it" was 100% standard mainstream teaching for nearly 1,600 years. It was only officially reversed by the Second Vatican Council in 1967 - and that was massively controversial at the time, and is not universally accepted today.
"ARE JEWS WHITE / CAUCASIAN?"
Jewish people are an ethnic group, that mostly practices the religion of Judaism. "Aren't Jews just white people?" is a question that could only be asked in a major American city after about 1970. For the rest of the world and the rest of history it would be nonsensical. The American obsession with a color binary is not normative, not a default that the rest of the world has to adhere to; walk around in Europe and you will quickly be told that Germans and Finns are two entirely different ethnic group, as Russians are from Georgians, as Czechs are from Slovaks, as Magyars are from Serbs, etc. Well into the 20th century it was commonplace for Jews to be depicted as a dark, hairy, Asiatic race. Pale-skinned American Jews in 2023 have benefited from white privilege for about two hours; it is conditional, was by no means predictable they would ever have gotten it, and could just as easily be taken away. There's also the question of how "white" a visibly traditional and less assimilated Jewish person is, with the hairstyle and clothing that makes them an obvious and constant target for hate crimes.
And that's just for pale-skinned Jews. Because of how immigration worked in America (WHOLE DIFFERENT AND ALSO BAD CONVERSATION), most American Jews wound up Ashkenazi, from eastern Europe. But there are plenty of Sephardim from southern Europe, and Mizrahim from the Middle East, and Bnei Menashe from India, and Beta Israel from Ethiopia, and many many others.
Try to get someone to address whether they see Arabs as a real group and Jews, even Ashkenazi Jews, as just white people. It is a conversation worth interrogating.
"WHY WEREN'T ATHEISTS / AGNOSTICS PERSECUTED?"
They were, if they developed - but there was no such thing as an established atheist / agnostic culture in which children would be raised. All society was oriented around either Christendom or the Islamic ummah. Individual people could fall away from belief, and maybe recruit another here or there, but it was hard to organize and easy to snuff out, literally one at a time. And how can you REALLY tell if someone is an atheist? You can't read their mind while they pretend to pray. It is much easier to seek out, and find, Jewish prayer books or ritual objects, or a circumcision, and find the guilty that way. Jewish identity and traditions are passed on from parent to child - there was always a visible society existing as an alternative within the larger dominant one.
Jews maintain their distinct religious, ethnic, and cultural identity while living among larger, more powerful groups.
That's ultimately it.
The Hellenist and Roman empires all tried to force Jews to abandon their traditions and their belief in the one God and embrace polytheism - and were real mad when the Jews refused and fought back. After Rome destroyed Judea in 70 CE, the Jews were then dispersed into other territories and nations - and those in turn grew suspicious and hateful towards a population of immigrants who lived among them but would not be exactly like them, who would instead live in ways that suggested that the preferred beliefs of those other nations might actually be wrong. This hatred was there before the development of today's countries and political ideologies, and so it was absorbed into them and shaped them as they developed - hence the modern stripes of antisemitism we see in Europe, in the Middle East, among the far right and the far left.
As outsiders-among-us, already associated with what-we-are-not, the Jews became targets for ALL subsequent hatreds. In about ten seconds, you can find examples of people blaming Jews for inventing or controlling all of the following:
* Communism AND Capitalism
* Socialism AND Fascism
* Leftist Globalism AND Right-wing Nationalism
* Immigration AND Immigration bans
* Miscegenation AND Racism
* Sexual repression AND Pornography
* Criminals AND Police
"SHOULDN'T CHRISTIANS HAVE LIKED JEWS BECAUSE OF BIBLE / JESUS?"
Christianity, and to a lesser extent Islam, fully embraced for centuries the concept of supersessionism, also known as replacement theology. The idea was that Judaism was old, incomplete, and inferior, something to be corrected and replaced and at all times utterly dominated by the newer culture. Mainstream Christian teachings utterly loathed Jews for centuries and were largely oriented around inventing new crimes to accuse them of (ritual child sacrifice, poisoning wells, causing plagues, etc). The notion that "the Jews killed Christ and should be condemned for it" was 100% standard mainstream teaching for nearly 1,600 years. It was only officially reversed by the Second Vatican Council in 1967 - and that was massively controversial at the time, and is not universally accepted today.
"ARE JEWS WHITE / CAUCASIAN?"
Jewish people are an ethnic group, that mostly practices the religion of Judaism. "Aren't Jews just white people?" is a question that could only be asked in a major American city after about 1970. For the rest of the world and the rest of history it would be nonsensical. The American obsession with a color binary is not normative, not a default that the rest of the world has to adhere to; walk around in Europe and you will quickly be told that Germans and Finns are two entirely different ethnic group, as Russians are from Georgians, as Czechs are from Slovaks, as Magyars are from Serbs, etc. Well into the 20th century it was commonplace for Jews to be depicted as a dark, hairy, Asiatic race. Pale-skinned American Jews in 2023 have benefited from white privilege for about two hours; it is conditional, was by no means predictable they would ever have gotten it, and could just as easily be taken away. There's also the question of how "white" a visibly traditional and less assimilated Jewish person is, with the hairstyle and clothing that makes them an obvious and constant target for hate crimes.
And that's just for pale-skinned Jews. Because of how immigration worked in America (WHOLE DIFFERENT AND ALSO BAD CONVERSATION), most American Jews wound up Ashkenazi, from eastern Europe. But there are plenty of Sephardim from southern Europe, and Mizrahim from the Middle East, and Bnei Menashe from India, and Beta Israel from Ethiopia, and many many others.
Try to get someone to address whether they see Arabs as a real group and Jews, even Ashkenazi Jews, as just white people. It is a conversation worth interrogating.
"WHY WEREN'T ATHEISTS / AGNOSTICS PERSECUTED?"
They were, if they developed - but there was no such thing as an established atheist / agnostic culture in which children would be raised. All society was oriented around either Christendom or the Islamic ummah. Individual people could fall away from belief, and maybe recruit another here or there, but it was hard to organize and easy to snuff out, literally one at a time. And how can you REALLY tell if someone is an atheist? You can't read their mind while they pretend to pray. It is much easier to seek out, and find, Jewish prayer books or ritual objects, or a circumcision, and find the guilty that way. Jewish identity and traditions are passed on from parent to child - there was always a visible society existing as an alternative within the larger dominant one.
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Why do Jewish people, after all these centuries, still not believe in Jesus? It seems to me like if they believe the entirety of the Old Testament, it would be a small, easy leap of faith to believe in the New Testament. Jewish and Christian are even paired together today in the term "Judea-Christian". Why is it so difficult for Jews to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior when Jesus himself was Jewish?
And why do Palestinians want to wipe Israel off the map? Where are all those Jews supposed to go?
And why do Palestinians want to wipe Israel off the map? Where are all those Jews supposed to go?
Taking the bait...
- Why would they? Jesus hasn't done anything in 2000 years. Why would the passage of time, and "all these centuries", make them more likely to switch religions, when nothing new has happened to influence that decision? Frankly, after all these centuries, why do people still believe in Jesus at all? Same reason Jews don't -- hereditary faith practices say so.
- North Korea and South Korea are lumped together by the term "Korean", so wouldn't it be easier if they were all just North Korean?
- Because according to the existing faith of the time, Jesus was a heretic who claimed the status of God and prophet. You might as well ask why Christians are being so difficult about not following Joseph Smith and all becoming Mormon.
- Why would they? Jesus hasn't done anything in 2000 years. Why would the passage of time, and "all these centuries", make them more likely to switch religions, when nothing new has happened to influence that decision? Frankly, after all these centuries, why do people still believe in Jesus at all? Same reason Jews don't -- hereditary faith practices say so.
- North Korea and South Korea are lumped together by the term "Korean", so wouldn't it be easier if they were all just North Korean?
- Because according to the existing faith of the time, Jesus was a heretic who claimed the status of God and prophet. You might as well ask why Christians are being so difficult about not following Joseph Smith and all becoming Mormon.
"Judeo-Christian", like "Jews are white," is another concept that has existed for about two hours. For pretty much all modern history, Christendom existed in total and deliberate contrast to Jewry.
The term "Old and New Testament" is in its own way an artifact of supersessionism / replacementism - why not call one "First" and the other "Second"? See how people just build this into society?
More importantly - the Torah makes very clear to Jews what the requirements for Moshiach ("Messiah") are, and Jesus did not fulfill them (assuming he even existed, which in my experience most Jewish people do not believe). Followers of Jesus get around this by saying Jesus was so special that he changed the criteria and could become the Messiah by his say-so. That is the dispute, and it is a dispute that Jewish people are very much aware of and for the most part have taken a firm stand on. It's sort of like why Christians don't worship Mohammed. The story that came later claims to change the rules of the story that came earlier, so why didn't the earlier one just go away? Because it said the later one's changes were wrong.
The Palestinian issue is very complicated. They have certainly lost a lot due to Israel and have some legitimate grievances against it. However, Arab and Muslim antisemitism was extremely widespread and violent long before the restoration of Israel in 1948, or the rise of Zionism that led up to it, so some of that antisemitism got wrapped up into opposition to Israel regardless of what it did or didn't do. Among the people who want to get rid of Israel, in my experience, all those Jews are supposed to die. That is the point. Since Jewish society is, let's just say, high-alert to threats, they tend to take seriously anyone talking about taking over their land or restricting their rights or deciding where they may and may not live, and now in Israel are able to respond to that with extreme force. Which in turn can give Palestinians more grievances against Israel....
The most reasonable, achievable outcome for Israel / Palestine is a 2-state solution, almost certainly one that will be more favorable to Israel than Palestine. A less reasonable, more achievable outcome for Israel / Palestine is for the occupation as-is to endure forever, or at least until climate change wipes out all life in the Middle East. Dissolving Israel and replacing it with some other country, Palestine or otherwise, is neither reasonable nor achievable.
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As someone who fluctuates between agnosticism and atheism and of European/protestant decent, my perspective on the situation isn't that of someone who has personality been the target of Jewish persecution, so I think I'll bow out and let Thy take over. He's much more eloquent at debating the topic at hand than I anyway.
Catholics claim that Jesus started the Roman Catholic Church, but I think part of the Inquisition was anti-Semitism, along with anti-Muslim. If I'm not mistaken I think they even thought Protestants were heretics. Isn't that why Spain invaded England? I think Baptists, Lutherans, and other Protestant denominations accept Catholics as Christians, but I'm not sure if Catholics really consider Protestants real Christians. If they do, I think it's with derision. What's the beef Catholics have with Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation, even to this day? I thought history agrees that Martin Luther was right.
Depends on which inquisition you are talking about. There were several and the early ones especially were simply against anything that wasn't Catholic Christianity. An attempt to suppress Christian groups that weren't Catholic that had sprung up in medieval Europe before the Protestant Reformation as well as route out the remaining enclaves of older pagan/non-christian religions. The Spanish Inquisition was put in place to solidify Catholic control of Spain and heavily targeted the other two major religions of the area(Jewish and Muslim sects).
History HAS NOT proven Martin Luther right, only that his ideas are more popular.(History has largely not proven ANY religious leader right about religious matters) Martin Luther was QUITE antisemitic, btw. He called for the destruction of synagogues, the seizing of Jewish property and revocation of the few rights that Jews of the time period were given. Not a good figure to bring up in a thread about antisemitism.
History HAS NOT proven Martin Luther right, only that his ideas are more popular.(History has largely not proven ANY religious leader right about religious matters) Martin Luther was QUITE antisemitic, btw. He called for the destruction of synagogues, the seizing of Jewish property and revocation of the few rights that Jews of the time period were given. Not a good figure to bring up in a thread about antisemitism.
Jesus' disciples, the ones who carried on the supposed Catholic Church he established were Jewish. Jesus had alot of Jewish followers; alot of Jews were at his crucifixion. It stands to reason they had families, children, that they passed down Jesus' teachings and legacy to. Where are they today? There ought to be alot of Jews who are Christian Catholics around today because most people agree that the Bible does reflect what was going on in history at the time.