Anti-Semitism

Ungnome

Grand Empress of the Empire of One Square Foot.
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I think the core difference is that the Jews never FULLY left the Jerusalem area, even after it was controlled by Christian and later Muslim governments. The Jewish population in the city didn't regain a solid majority until the late 19th century and the modern state wasn't formed until 1948, but the Jews were always there, at least in a minority capacity.
 

LordGigaIce

Another babka?
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He still gets accused of being anti-Semitic.
Well he called Nazis "very good people" so that one's on him. You think he wouldn't have done that if his Jewish family members mattered to him.

Donald Trump and Bibi Netanyahu were good friends, and Trump did alot for Israel.
I don't know if you're aware of what's going on in Israel right now, but a lot of Israelis don't seem to like Bibi. Much less Jews the world over.

On a long enough timeline, nowhere is anyone's original homeland. And prior to the founding of the modern state of Israel, the last time it had truly belonged to them was over 2000 years ago. Saying that's a good enough reason to say that they rightfully own it and that, therefore, it should be given back to them is an...interesting position for an American to take, considering parts of this country still belonged to someone else less than two hundred years ago. Hell, it was an interesting position for a lot of Europeans to take, given how much land has changed hands over the continent's history.

What's the statute of limitations on stealing a country?
I can't believe we have to re-litigate whether or not Jews have a claim to the Levant...
So here we go.
First, as has been pointed out, Jews have never left. Through all the conquests, reconquests, persecutions, purges, etc... there has always been a Jewish presence in Israel/Palestine/the Levant/whatever you want to call it. And has been there longer then any single Arab population.

Secondly, yes. The majority of Jews left Israel ~2000 years ago. Why was that? Did we all decide the weather in Europe and/or Iran was lovely and bolt? No. We were expelled. By the Romans. IE Europeans. IE white people. Had the Romans not expelled us, not caused the Diaspora, we'd still call it our homeland, because it is our homeland. If we as a people just decided to migrate elsewhere, fair enough, but that's not what happened. We were driven from our homeland, and now get to be lectured about how "last time we controlled it was 2000 years ago so it's not really ours" by the descendants of the people who drove us out.

Third... even accounting for all of that... Jews adjusted well in the new lands they settled in after the Roman expulsion any time we were allowed to. Key point. Allowed to. The modern concept of Zionism- that Jews need a homeland- isn't rooted in Biblical stories, no. It's rooted in the continued debasement, persecution, and oppression we faced under the watchful eyes of the people whose descendants drove us from our homeland in the first place.
If antisemitism wasn't a constant fact of life, if we'd been allowed to just G-ddman be, then the Zionist movement likely never would have been conceived as a necessity, or at the very least never have gotten anywhere. It was, after all, conceived after the Dreyfus affair. And even then, with the vast history of antisemitism in Europe before then and the staggering display of it within French society during that affair, even then the idea of a Jewish state was one that didn't have majority support among Jews worldwide. It was only after the Holocaust, in many ways the end result of the previous centuries of antisemitism in Europe, that anyone, Jew or non-Jew alike, took the idea seriously enough to make it a reality.

So all of point three is to say that antisemitism itself made Israel a necessity. Even accounting for the Romans expelling us from our own homeland, even accounting for the centuries of antisemitism experienced in both the Christian and Islamic worlds, even accounting for all of it, Israel became necessary because the antisemitism of Europe could not be contained and the Holocaust happened.

So forgive me if I come off as salty, but between my people's expulsion from their native homeland, the descendants of the people during the expelling then deciding to persecute us in our new homes, the further descendants of those people deciding to literally try and wipe us from existence, and that same group's descendants deciding to lecture Israel on whether or not it has a right to exist? Pardon me but that's some s**t. That's some grade-A bulls**t.

Now let's circle back around.
I'm not naive enough to assume that an ancient land deed gives Jews a say to all of the land. Israel's founding was deeply flawed and there are multiple parties to blame there, but it was also 1948 and it's now 2023, and trying to wind the clock back is an enormously stupid idea.

So let's see what the realities of 2023 are? You have Israel. You have a majority Jewish population living in Israel's internationally recognized borders. You have a majority Arab population living in the "Palestinian territories" of the West Bank and Gaza. The solution- the fairest solution as far as I can see- is an Israel alongside an independent Palestine.
And Bibi's government's inability to negotiate towards that is a huge problem in and of itself. But the Palestinian government being half composed of an actual terrorist group and the other half being run by a corrupt kleptocracy doesn't make it easier.

Frankly both the Israel government and the Palestinian authority need to be thoroughly purged of the idiots in charge. Israel is far from blameless for the current state of affairs but 1) I don't see it has singularly to blame and 2) I find the "iSrAeL dOeSnT hAvE a RiGhT tO eXiSt" crowd to basically be the progressive answer to the alt right "JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US!" crowd.
 

LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
i'm not jewish but iirc satan wasn't enemies with god in judaism; he was on god's side, but not humanity's, so he was basically an asshole prosecutor. "ha-satan" meant "the accuser," i think?
Satan in Judaism is G-d's asshole lawyer. His job is to basically point out all the bad things in your life so when G-d judges you He judges everything about you. The idea is that no one is perfect, no one is all-good, and that G-d loves His creations, so maybe He has a bit of a blind spot for that. Satan's job is to make sure you're held to account for all the good and all the bad.
 

diamondgirl

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There no reason for Christians to be anti-semitic because according the Christian Holy Bible, the Jews are God's chosen people.

And we, the Gentiles, are beneficiaries of Jesus, who was Jewish, saving the Jews.
 

Ungnome

Grand Empress of the Empire of One Square Foot.
Citizen
There no reason for Christians to be anti-semitic because according the Christian Holy Bible, the Jews are God's chosen people.

And we, the Gentiles, are beneficiaries of Jesus, who was Jewish, saving the Jews.
No GOOD reason to be anti-semitic, but here we are. There ARE reasons, though, stupid, selfish, and ignorant reasons, just not GOOD reasons. If you don't think Christians can't be just as sutpid, selfish or ignorant as any other group of humans, I've got a bit more than 2000 years of history to prove otherwise, and NOT just in the context of how they treated the Jews.
 

diamondgirl

Member
Citizen
Then account for the over thousand years of Christians persecuting Jews.

I can't, because it doesn't make any sense.

That's why I'm here, to try to make sense of anti-Semitism.

Yes, I know anti-Semitism exists, but it's not clear to me why. Most of what I see here posted are the effects, and not much explanation as to the causes.
 

diamondgirl

Member
Citizen
Did you know that Martin Luther actually wrote a treatise called On the Jews and Their Lies?


Martin Luther wanted the Jews to believe in Jesus, who came to die on the Cross for their sins. He acted out of frustration, and went about converting Jews to Christianity the wrong way. Luther cared deeply about the Jews because he believed they were God's chosen people. He wanted them to believe in Christ and be saved. Luther was trying to save the Jews, and he acted out of love. Any other way of interpreting this would simply not make sense.
 

LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
I can't, because it doesn't make any sense.
I'm going to guess, based on how you've acted in this thread, that you're on the younger end.
And there's nothing wrong with that, but a big thing people need to come to terms with as they leave childhood and enter adulthood is that the world does not, and will not, conform to how you think it "makes sense."

No, Christian persecution of Jews doesn't "make sense" if you look at it from the perspective of someone in 2023 looking back, but A LOT about the world doesn't make sense from a modern perspective. So let's talk about the roots of antisemitism, specifically among Christians.

Yoshua ben Yosef aka Jesus of Nazareth was Jewish and primarily preached to Jews. He wasn't indifferent to Romans or other non-Jews, but his original message is very much tailored to Jews of first century Judea, dealing with theological and socio-political concepts they'd have been aware of.
His original followers were, likewise, Jewish. And this wasn't lost on the Roman occupiers of Judea. Pilate, the Roman governor, originally sent Jesus to King Herod since as a Jew he was Herod's problem. And following Jesus' crucifixion Romans considered Jesus' followers just another sect of Judaism. And that made sense. His followers were all still Jews, and Jesus' theological basis for being the Messiah was rooted in Jewish prophecy. It seemed like just one more sect of Judaism at a time when Judaism was divided into a lot of sects as-is.
Early Christians thought this way too, believing that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of the Messiah mentioned in the Torah and attempted to convert other Jews to their thinking. This was- again- a purely internal Jewish sort of thing. With one sect of Jews- Christians- trying to convince the rest of the Jews that they were right.

It became clear, however, that Jesus' followers were not going to be able to convert the rest of the Jews. As said above, Judaism was very fractured among many sects at this time and while Jesus had his followers they were but one of many. It's around the time Saul-turned-St. Paul that things began to shift. Paul likely wasn't the big L-Leader of this movement, but he was a primary advocate of Christianity breaking away from Judaism. At its root it was a frustration among early Christians that their fellow Jews wouldn't accept Jesus as the Messiah, but there were other layers.
As Christians realized their fellow Jews weren't likely to convert they began to target Greeks, and made significant headway into the Greek population of the near East. This was made easy by the fact that the Christian scriptures that would become the New Testament were written in Greek, as Greek was the lingua franca both Jews and Romans could understand.

And something interesting happens here in the historical record. Christian community leaders start telling their followers to stop attending synagogue services, and Christian community leaders start declaring that a "gentile" who converts to Christianity doesn't have to get circumcised. Circumcision is a Jewish rite, and early Christians originally believed that any non-Jewish converts to Christianity would first have to get circumcised as Jews. But starting around the time of Paul this changes. The religion is making in-roads into Greece and suddenly Christian leaders are talking about no longer attending Jewish religious services and removing a very Jewish religious rite to make recruiting non-Jews easier.

All of this was done because Christians realized that 1) most other Jews were unreceptive to the idea that Jesus was the Messiah 2) therefore the faith should be spread outside of the Jewish community and 3) if Romans- the authority at the time- think Christianity is a sect of Judaism then make changes to Christianity to make a clean break with Judaism.

3 proved vital, and it's through that line of thinking that we don't just see early Christians renouncing Jewish religious services and telling new converts they don't have to be circumcised, they start attacking Jews. If the ruling Empire in the area thinks you're part of a group, and you want to really convince them you're not, you attack that group to say "see we aren't them!"
It's here where Jews were blamed for Jesus' crucifixion, despite that being a very Roman method of execution, and it's here where we see early Christian leaders lashing out at Judaism on theological grounds. If you've ever heard a Christian call Judaism a "dead religion" or some variation of that, this is where that comes from. It's early Christian leaders attacking Judaism in an effort to separate themselves from Judaism.

Roughly three hundred years later Constantine the Great won a civil war in Rome and converted to Christianity because he claimed an angel told him he'd win under the sign of the Christian cross. What's interesting is that Constantine's original victory wasn't 100% decisive and you had other centres of Roman authority that attempted to use Greco-Roman paganism as a bulwark against Constantine's Christianity. And there was even a plan at one point to rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem in an effort to strengthen non-Christian faiths in the region. Constantine's total victory killed these plans, but they tell us that three centuries after Jesus' death Romans very much viewed Judaism and Christianity separately.

Anyhow Constantine's conversion ushered in a mass conversion through the Empire as everyone wanted to get on the new regime's good side. There's a lot of debate about how sudden vs how prolonged paganism's death was in this period, but it's immaterial. Fact was Rome's government was now in the hands of the Christian church and they inherited the ideological attacks Christians levelled against Jews three centuries earlier.

The fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476 AD/CE ushered in the Middle Ages and with no widespread governing authority left, the Church filled that void. The Church, inheriting earlier attacks on Jews and an inherent bias against them for not accepting Jesus, led to the Church either actively aiding in persecutions against Jews or just... looking the other way.

Theologically Jews represented something very uncomfortable for the Medieval Christian Church. On one hand they saw themselves as the inheritors of the Old Testament along with the New. The Biblical prophets, figures such as Abraham, Jacob/Israel, Moses, Aaron, right down to Judah the Maccabee were seen as the embodiment of divine virtue, men who came before and set the stage for Jesus.
And yet the Jews still existed as a distinct faith. Had the Jews all converted to Christianity this Christian "adoption" of Jewish Biblical figures would have been very easy to justify, but with Jews retaining their pre-Jesus faith and venerating these figures as central figures of their own faith and history it made Christianity's claim on that legacy just a bit tenuous.
Of course the Christians controlled all the governments and had all the armies so they could say whatever they wanted really, but theologically the continued existence of the Jews made Christian claims to have inherited the legacy of the Bible very troublesome.

Which is why you see some branches of Christianity claim that they supplanted the Jews.... it's basically spite in theological form, angrily lashing out at Jews for refusing to convert.

Enter Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation. Luther was originally very friendly to the Jews, and declared that of course the Jews haven't converted, have you seen how corrupt the Catholic Church is?
Things got dicey after Luther's Reformation movement kicked in high gear and new sects of Christianity based around his teachings sprung up. When the Jews still showed no desire to convert that's when Luther started writing and publishing very antisemitic tracts.

And all in all...
That's what it comes down to. The first Christians were Jews, and were Christians simultaneously while being Jews. The first attempted converts were their fellow Jews and most other Jews found no compelling reason to believe that the rabbi who was just crucified by the Romans was the Messiah.
Since then Christian hostility towards Jews has been rooted in Judaism's refusal to accept Jesus as the Messiah and that Judaism's continued existence as a living religion undermines Christian claims to have inherited the Biblical legacy of Abraham, Moses, etc...

Now this isn't where the story ends. As the Enlightenment took hold in Europe religion stopped being the dominant lens through which thinkers, philosophers, politicians, and monarchs looked at the world. "Jewish emancipation," basically the repeal of Medieval laws limiting where Jews could work, how they could work, and their political rights, became a cause that picked up steam through the 18th and 19th centuries, becoming near-universal in Western and Central Europe by the dawn of the 20th century.
Yet as you can see in the present day, a relaxing of old bigotries and a spread of tolerance does not make said old bigotries go away. Antisemitism continued after this point as people raised on a religious hatred for Jews now had to find other reasons to justify said hatred. Enter pseudo-scientific racism and the eventual rise of the Nazi Party.

By then, though, the Church was undergoing a massive shift in how it viewed Jews and many individual Churches and Priests acted to save Jews from the Nazis, even if the Church itself was too deadlocked to do much if anything. By the time WWII was over and the full extent of the Holocaust known the Church finally saw fit to rid itself of antisemitic doctrine, something which was followed by other denominations. These days even the Lutheran Church outright rejects Luther's antisemitic writings.

So these days the Christianity- for the most part- has moved beyond its antisemitic issues. That doesn't mean, however, that they didn't happen. It doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to you personally. It all happened, and there are reasons why it did.

Martin Luther wanted the Jews to believe in Jesus, who came to die on the Cross for their sins. He acted out of frustration, and went about converting Jews to Christianity the wrong way. Luther cared deeply about the Jews because he believed they were God's chosen people. He wanted them to believe in Christ and be saved. Luther was trying to save the Jews, and he acted out of love. Any other way of interpreting this would simply not make sense.
Luther acted out of love? Is that why he wrote that Jews should be killed down to the last child and their synagogues torn down to the foundations? That's love to you?

I wrote that entire (admittedly truncated) rundown on where Christian antisemitism came from under the assumption that you are someone genuinely confused and wanting answers. But this makes me think something else is going on.

So tell me. What angle are you coming at with all of these questions?
 
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LordGigaIce

Another babka?
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Why do Jewish people, after all these centuries, still not believe in Jesus? It seems to me like if they believe the entirety of the Old Testament, it would be a small, easy leap of faith to believe in the New Testament. Jewish and Christian are even paired together today in the term "Judea-Christian". Why is it so difficult for Jews to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior when Jesus himself was Jewish?
I'm going to assume you're Christian based on some of your other postings. And as a Jew, I will attempt to answer your questions. I will try to do so in as respectful a way as possible to your own faith.

Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah because according to Jewish theology Jesus did not fulfil the prophecies of the Messiah. The Messiah is supposed to be a descendent of King David. Jesus allegedly checks that box, but then again so did a lot of people from back then, including Herod. No one's celebrating Herod's birthday with presents, all I'm saying :p

Anyway back to being serious. In addition to being a descendent of King David the Messiah is supposed to wander the Earth, making himself known to Jewish communities the world over. He's meant to smite the enemies of the Jewish people, and usher in G-d's Kingdom on Earth where the righteous dead will be reborn and everything will be perfect.
The smiting enemies one... you can see why Messiah proclamations were popular in the first century with Judea under Roman occupation.

Anyway Jesus did none of that. He was executed by Romans for allegedly undermining a fragile status quo in Judea. He didn't smite anyone, and he didn't usher in G-d's Kingdom on Earth. As I said Messiah watching was popular at the time due to people looking for someone- anyone- to kick Rome in the teeth. So Jesus as the Messiah seemed relatively popular for a while but after he died failing to do the things the Messiah was supposed to do according to prophecy these people moved on.

Jesus' most devout followers, however, countered by claiming that the prophecies were misinterpreted/incomplete. They claimed that Jesus ascended to heaven to establish G-d's Kingdom there, and that there would be a second coming where he did all that Messiah stuff on Earth. The original Jewish Messianic prophecies say nothing of a second coming. It was something early Christians claimed to justify their belief that Jesus was the Messiah even after his death.

While these early Christians found an audience for their faith- first in the Greeks, then the Romans, then the Germanics and Franks- the core argument that Jesus fulfilled Jewish Messianic prophecy just wasn't accepted by most Jews. You ask why after 2000 years Jews still don't accept Jesus?
Look, I'm a Jew. And admittedly not very observant. I go to Temple on the High Holidays and occasionally on my grandfather's Yahrzeit, and that's it. I also love shell fish and I'm gay. So I'm not an authority or paragon on Jewish theology, but if you're asking me?

He didn't fulfill the Messianic prophecy. If he did for you as a Christian then by all means, I hope you find peace and happiness in your faith :) I have nothing against Christianity as a religion.
As far as my faith goes though? Sorry. He didn't fulfill the required prophetic role.
 

Spin-Out

i cant take it anymore im at my limit
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Wow, uh. I guess I just learned that the early Christian Church was concerned solely with power even before Constantine got his slimy Roman hands all over it, huh?
 

diamondgirl

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My belief in Jesus does not rest on his crucifixion or whether he fullfilled Messianic prophecies. I think most people agree with the historical record that the crucifixion happened, and they don't agree about the prophecies.

My faith rests on the Resurrection. If I believe that Jesus rose from the dead, went through that rock covering his tomb, and appeared to his disciples, I have no problem whatsoever believing Jesus was who he said he was.

I guess it comes down to whether you believe what his disciples said they witnessed or if you think they're lying. I believe them. I just do. I think alot of faith starts with wanting to believe it, and I want to believe it.
 
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LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
Wow, uh. I guess I just learned that the early Christian Church was concerned solely with power even before Constantine got his slimy Roman hands all over it, huh?
St. Paul lived ~250 years before Constantine and if you read into what he did... yeah. It's not.. um... great.

My belief in Jesus does not rest on his crucifixion. I think most Jews agree with the historical record that it happened.
ofc. We have more historical documentation (extra Biblical that is) for Jesus' existence then we do Hannibal's. Jesus of Nazareth was a real person, that much is certain to anyone who studies this stuff for a living. The question is his divinity which is, of course, a matter of faith.

I guess it comes down to whether you believe what his disciples say they witnessed or if you think they're lying.
I have a friend who swears up and down he's seen a werewolf. A friend mind you. Someone I have every reason to assume isn't lying to me. He's a smart guy too.
Do I doubt he saw a werewolf? I donno. I think he saw something, I think he genuinely believes what he's telling me.

Now I don't mean to compare Jesus to a werewolf, but I tell the story to illustrate a point. This is a guy who, if I sent him a text message, I could be talking to him via Skype within half an hour, and I do not know what he saw or the circumstances surrounding it. So imagine how hard that is for people alive 2000 years ago?
I don't think the disciples of Jesus have to be lying. I don't know what they saw or think they saw. I cannot possibly know that.

All I have is what the Christian faith says, and what the faith I was born and raised in says. And full disclosure? I've contemplated conversion to Christianity twice in my life. And I just never did it because when it came down to be honest with myself I couldn't make that leap to "Jesus is the Messiah."
I'm far from the most observant Jew in the world, but my religious outlook is Jewish at the end of the day. And to me I couldn't bring myself to believe that Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophecies of my religion's ancient prophets.
 

diamondgirl

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Citizen
Based on Occam's razor it's more likely that Moses went up the mountain and chiseled the Ten Commandments himself onto those stone tablets than his claim that God gave them to him.

My point is that faith is not an intellectual conclusion, it's more emotional, reflecting a person's desire, taste, upbringing, etc.
 


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