Serious theological question for mature Christians

[CoffeeHorse]

Somebody could write a really interesting book explaining the phenomenon of Christians being more interested in the Old Testament than the Gospels. How did that happen?

No matter which re-re-re-translation you prefer, the accounts seem to agree that Jesus preferred the company of humble sinners over self righteous fundies any day of the week. They also seem to agree that he was not a fan of hurting yourself for the sake of some dumb old rule. I don't think his "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" rant was just about the Sabbath. If you feel like you're supposed to hurt yourself, or not be true to yourself, because some very ancient rule said so, believe what you want but you can't blame that one on Jesus. That is irreconcilable with his philosophy as far as we can reconstruct it.

If you're a Christian struggling with LGBT, just ask yourself seriously. Find a mirror somewhere in your house and look in it. Do you really believe it's more likely that this is the one time Jesus would say "Actually ye Pharisees read that one correctly. I knew ye could do it." or do you believe it's more likely he would once again say they're misreading things?

 

[PrimalxConvoy]

Okay, but if someone asks a question on a publicly visible forum the answers are for anyone interested, not just the person who asked.
Also, I didn't even say anything political in my second post. (But I will in this one.)



Because "conservative Christian", "Republican", "conspiracy theorist", and "anti-SJW troll" are all heavily overlapping groups these days, to the point where there was recently a megachurch chanting in unison about how they'd "stand against wokeness".

Though conservative white Christians were also on the wrong side of segregation before that overlap was so pronounced, so it's also just because LGBT+ issues, and more recently trans issues in particular, are the current civil rights issues.

I would say the current dividing issue is abortion (and there's evidence for that being weaponised/politicised by far-right, Evangelical church leaders some time ago), but that is another issue for another thread methinks.

Regardless, I agree with Caldwin. I'm sure this thread could evolve/devolve into a "critique on religion/Christianity" (as I feel they often have done online), but as the OP's question seemed to me more about the humanist issues, that's what I think is more relevant regarding related posts to it, perhaps?

 

[Caldwin]

Probably because a large percentage of Christian pundits made it a hot topic for civil and political clout chasing in order to create a wedge that would allow them to leverage the fears and doubts of the masses into a powerful base? It's not a secret or an obscure historical fact. It's literally the playbook that has been on stark display for pretty much ever. Same thing they did with black people. Same thing they did with Native people. Same story over and over. "Look at these different people, they're different and we can all agree that they're different, so hate them and support us. The good people who do good things."

The LGBT aren't even the only one, just the one most in the headline right now because we were actually making progress toward acceptance. I see Christians picketing Planned Parenthood nearly every day. I see Christians telling me how racial minorities don't deserve affordable healthcare. I see Christians saying that I will go to hell if I don't follow their specific brand of guidelines. The LGBT are just one out of many, many, many talking points for conservative Christian pundits. Anything that can frighten the straight, white men (and women by proxy) of this country is a target and always has been.

Like, I appreciate that you don't want the LGBT to be persecuted, but this isn't a mystery. It's in the news. They don't mince words. There's no quite part they're hiding. It scares the straights, so they use it to leverage power.

Using their religion to gain power for themselves while harming others...

If that's true (realize when I say "if" I really mean "of course it's true because, like you said, it's been going on since forever"), then not only are they missing the entire point of who Jesus is, they've made themselves into the very thing Jesus was against. That is exactly the mindset of the pharisees that Jesus fought against so hard.

 

[The Doctor Who]

If that's true (realize when I say "if" I really mean "of course it's true because, like you said, it's been going on since forever"), then not only are they missing the entire point of who Jesus is, they've made themselves into the very thing Jesus was against. That is exactly the mindset of the pharisees that Jesus fought against so hard.

Yes. Though I would say they aren't as much "missing" the point as "ignoring" or "uninterested in".

For someone who is an earnest believer, it's easy to fall into the smokescreen trap of debating these people as if they're approaching the subject from the same perspective you are. But that's what they count on, that implicit unity of 'shared' faith.

This kind of relates to what Fnu was wondering about. Why so many Christians focus on the Old Testament. And from what I've seen from an outside perspective is that, well... Fire and brimstone and authoritarian power are a lot more comfortable to a lot of people than a message of love and tolerance. It's easy to hate things you don't understand and comfortable to be told that it's not you that's the problem, but that group of weirdos who play the loud music or wear the 'wrong' gendered clothes.

The people who exploit this are using biblical text to find anything that would corroborate those anxieties. It's never about earnest faith, but calculated manipulation of a fearful population.

They may believe in God or even Jesus, but they see their faith and the implicit trust it inspires as a tool, to be exploited for personal gain.

 

[Cybersnark]

Why has LGBT+ taken the spotlight as the one thing that will keep a person out of heaven?

Probably because a large percentage of Christian pundits made it a hot topic for civil and political clout chasing in order to create a wedge that would allow them to leverage the fears and doubts of the masses into a powerful base? It's not a secret or an obscure historical fact. It's literally the playbook that has been on stark display for pretty much ever. Same thing they did with black people. Same thing they did with Native people. Same story over and over. "Look at these different people, they're different and we can all agree that they're different, so hate them and support us. The good people who do good things."

Yeah, it only seems like the narrative is all about LGBTQ+ issues because of the lack of historical context (which is of course built into the narrative, as Isaac notes). A hundred years ago, no-one was talking about LGBTQ+ people, and it was all about black people. Before that it was women, before that it was non-British people in general, before that it was non-Christians, and before that it was other types of Christians.

Just watch, in another hundred or few-hundred years, people will be quoting bible verses about cyborgs, or artificial intelligence, or extraterrestrials, or human-alien hybrids.

Bigots aren't very creative, they'll always keep going back to the same well.

 

[Kup]

Such major props to the Christians who have replied in this thread. I saw it when it was initially posted, tried to write a reply, and ended up walking away because I couldn't quite articulate the words the right way.

Caldwin's initial post pretty much sums up a lot of the things I wanted to say, so kudos. I think the only contribution I could add is that there needs to be a distinction between how Christianity is displayed on the national stage vs what Jesus teaches us in the Bible. Christians need to be more aware that we are constantly under the scrutinizing eye of non-believers, and I wish we were so vocal about the splinter in our neighbor's eyes while we have entire boards sticking out of our own.

 

[NovaSaber]

I would say the current dividing issue is abortion (and there's evidence for that being weaponised/politicised by far-right, Evangelical church leaders some time ago), but that is another issue for another thread methinks.

Regardless, I agree with Caldwin. I'm sure this thread could evolve/devolve into a "critique on religion/Christianity" (as I feel they often have done online), but as the OP's question seemed to me more about the humanist issues, that's what I think is more relevant regarding related posts to it, perhaps?

Ironically, humanist issues (and how they conflict with certain Christian concept that keep getting brought up) are exactly what I've had to hold back on to keep the focus on topic.

Just watch, in another hundred or few-hundred years, people will be quoting bible verses about cyborgs, or artificial intelligence, or extraterrestrials, or human-alien hybrids.

The conspiracy-prone ones already are.

And the more mainstream ones are already pretending that it's against abortion or that it says anything about trans people at all.

 

[Nevermore]

You are being attacked spiritually. Satan is using Abraham's dilemma against you to put a wedge between you and God. This is going to be harsh, and I'm sorry for that. However, irrespective of the sin, there's only one choice. Lean on God, fast and pray, and the devil will flee from you because he knows that unlike Abraham, there's no need for you to find a ram in the bushes.

There's a meme featuring a yellow fish which I not going to post here.

What a load.

Question: How can someone who claims to be a devout Christian support a man like Donald Trump, who has been married three times?

 

[KidTDragon]

Question: How can someone who claims to be a devout Christian support a man like Donald Trump, who has been married three times?

And who lies, and steals, and cons, and who's pretty much a Seven Deadly Sins box set.

 

[NovaSaber]

Trump also kicked a priest out of his own church so he could use it for a photo op...in which he held the Bible upside down.

 

[Sunstorm]

I have no stones to throw here....even unfollowed the thread after I made the post.

I was given a message, and I conveyed it. What anyone does with that message is between them and God.

 

[KidTDragon]

So, cognitive dissonance, then?

 

[Nevermore]

I have no stones to throw here....even unfollowed the thread after I made the post.

I was given a message, and I conveyed it. What anyone does with that message is between them and God.

You did not answer my question, nor KidTDragon's follow-up.

How do you reconcile Donald Trump's entire person with Christian values?

 

[Sunstorm]

You did not answer my question, nor KidTDragon's follow-up.

How do you reconcile Donald Trump's entire person with Christian values?

That's not my job...but the answer is Jesus. He is the Great Reconciler.

 

[wonko the sane?]

You did not answer my question, nor KidTDragon's follow-up.

How do you reconcile Donald Trump's entire person with Christian values?

He did answer your question; because you honestly can't, so you lie and deflect.

 

[KidTDragon]

That's not my job...but the answer is Jesus. He is the Great Reconciler.

Cognitive dissonance. Got it.

 

[Kup]

Question: How can someone who claims to be a devout Christian support a man like Donald Trump, who has been married three times?

While I can’t speak for anyone else, I will say that there are devout believers who absolutely did not support DT.

 

[PrimalxConvoy]

I have no stones to throw here....even unfollowed the thread after I made the post.

I was given a message, and I conveyed it. What anyone does with that message is between them and God.

I would like to point out that most people here have been rather open and kind with this discussion, regardless of how fundamentalist their beliefs are (religiously, humanistically, etc), for what is a rather contentious, divisive (and in some cases, painful) topic for some/many people.

 

[NovaSaber]

While I can’t speak for anyone else, I will say that there are devout believers who absolutely did not support DT.

Obviously. The reasons why you wouldn't are obvious enough to also be the reason it's strange that any would.

 

[Caldwin]

How did this get around to politics and what a person thinks about Trump? Personally, I've said nothing but hate sin, love the sinner. I haven't cast stones at anyone for anything. Do you now want me to throw stones at Ttump? Shall I bring in political figures from the other side and start throwing stones at them as well? Is that where you want this discussion to go? If so, leave me out of it and consider me duly reminded of why I don't set foot into P&R.