Star Trek General Discussion

[Cybersnark]

I have felt from the very start of this show that she was right. Not only would it have saved lives, it might have prevented the war.

It was never remotely canon, but the Axanar fan video had a great line from a contemporary Klingon: "If words were water, the Federation would drown us all."

The Federation loves to talk, but that is the worst way to get through to Klingons.

It's dramatic irony; we-the-audience have decades more "experience" with Klingons than anyone in Starfleet at that point, so we can see the tragedy coming a light-year away.

(The best way would actually have been to insult them to their faces, preferably with some over-the-top melodramatic gesture [the Klingons love their opera, and think insult-games are great fun].)

 

[Fero McPigletron]

You came so close to answering your own question. Why are the female leads on Wonderfalls and Pushing Daisies named Jay and Chuck? And for that matter why is the female lead in Dead Like Me called George? It's really weird.

OMQ that's absolutely right!!! It must be a Fuller thing with the male names to female characters! I didn't finish Dead Like Me though but, yeah, I remember not liking dead girl in Pushing Daisies as Chuck, hahaha. Gosh dang, nice pattern recognition work! hehe

He could have used a different name because Michael is too close to Mikaela.

Yeah, I have no idea why Star Trek keep changing the way the Klingons look. I think that we all generally like the way they appeared in the films and through Voyager. Yet, they changed them here and they changed them in the Kelvin films.

Huh, after I finish Discovery and Section 31 movie, I should probably rematch the Kelvin films.

Sarek is around, and you got to give the guy credit as he truly does live up to Mark Lenard's legacy of the character. The timeline here is Spock is serving on the Enterprise under Cpt. Pike, so you are about a decade before TOS, IIRC.

Now that I know that Discovery is in the pre TOS times, I have to ask why did the showrunners decide that? Why not make new adventures and progress the timeline further?

So Picard, Lower Decks and Prodigy are the most current.

She is a cyborg, she was damaged in a shuttle accident that killed her fiancé and left her requiring these components to live.

I was thinking along the lines of why is a robot around, ala from the Synthetics crisis from Picard. But since Discovery is in the past, it doesn't follow anymore.

He does a great job as Mudd too!

I didn't realize he was suppose to be the original Mudd, until the wife popped up.

I have felt from the very start of this show that she was right. Not only would it have saved lives, it might have prevented the war. However, Star Fleet is always letting others fire on them first, and add to that she broke the chain of command in attempted mutiny to fire first, and you get her in prison for it.

---
Saw a couple of more eps of Discovery, until the mirrorverse start.

The Mudd time loop ep was great, if an expected story type. Yeah, funny to see Mudd's wife around. I hope Stamets doesn't turn evil.

The peace trees were jerks for calling the Klingons over. Then the next episode, the whole war was over already? Gosh dang, that was quick. They killed the (second) war instigator and rescued the captured lady person and there was still time left over in the ep. Aaaaand Stamets jumped them to the mirrorverse, wow.

New Captain Tilly to Killy was great, haha, but I'm going to assume that this mirrorverse stuff won't stick. Was surprised when Tyler the Burnham boyfriend killed Stamets' boyfriend. Sooo I'm going to assume Stamets would go evil from the loss or they'll bring back a mirrorverse doctor boyfriend with them.

Also assumed Tyler had a Stockholm sexual whatever with the white suit Klingon torturer (I didn't need to see the sex scene, yikes) but now I'm assuming he's a modified Klingon agent.

I'm actually ok with Discovery. Things are just going way too fast.

 

[Axaday]

I have felt from the very start of this show that she was right. Not only would it have saved lives, it might have prevented the war. However, Star Fleet is always letting others fire on them first, and add to that she broke the chain of command in attempted mutiny to fire first, and you get her in prison for it.

I think not too far into the series you really have to conclude that she must have been right, because she was wrong it never happened again.

 

[Axaday]

Now that I know that Discovery is in the pre TOS times, I have to ask why did the showrunners decide that? Why not make new adventures and progress the timeline further?

It is a mystery. Maybe Fuller will say some time. When developing he said the series would answer a big question that had been left open and people suggested various things, including Captain Garth. Fuller left pretty soon after the show started and if they ever answered his big question, I don't know what it was.

 

[G.B.Blackrock]

OMQ that's absolutely right!!! It must be a Fuller thing with the male names to female characters! I didn't finish Dead Like Me though but, yeah, I remember not liking dead girl in Pushing Daisies as Chuck, hahaha. Gosh dang, nice pattern recognition work! hehe

He could have used a different name because Michael is too close to Mikaela.

Well, yes, Fuller does have an intentional pattern of giving the female leads of his series names that are stereotypically male, but the "too close to" comment misses the point a touch. For example, "Chuck" in Pushing Daisies is a nickname (the character's full name is Charlotte Charles, and "Charlotte" would be stereotypically female). For Wonderfalls, Wikipedia spells the lead character's name as "Jaye," which is a spelling often used with women (more often, in my experience, than with guys, although I've seen both), although there's no difference in pronunciation from the stereotypically male "Jay." Fuller's pretty happy to play with these things.

For a non-Fuller example that's relevant here, the full first name of "Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman" was Mikaela, but she was always called "Mike" (or perhaps more often, "Dr. Mike"). That's not to suggest that Ms. Burnham really is "Mikaela" (there's no evidence for this), but "Michael" really isn't so odd as all that.

 

[The Predaking]

OMQ that's absolutely right!!! It must be a Fuller thing with the male names to female characters! I didn't finish Dead Like Me though but, yeah, I remember not liking dead girl in Pushing Daisies as Chuck, hahaha. Gosh dang, nice pattern recognition work! hehe

He could have used a different name because Michael is too close to Mikaela.


Huh, after I finish Discovery and Section 31 movie, I should probably rematch the Kelvin films.


Now that I know that Discovery is in the pre TOS times, I have to ask why did the showrunners decide that? Why not make new adventures and progress the timeline further?

So Picard, Lower Decks and Prodigy are the most current.

Maybe they wanted to have Star Trek feel like it used to in the TOS era, instead of the Post TNG Era, where whole alpha quadrant was basically mapped out, and technology was so far advanced that ships could easily got further out that Voyager did in a standard mission. It does make it more difficult though given that we know what happens.

I didn't realize he was suppose to be the original Mudd, until the wife popped up.

Yup! The one and only!

The Mudd time loop ep was great, if an expected story type. Yeah, funny to see Mudd's wife around. I hope Stamets doesn't turn evil.

This episode really was great. I wonder how many loops he made before they stopped him.

The peace trees were jerks for calling the Klingons over. Then the next episode, the whole war was over already? Gosh dang, that was quick. They killed the (second) war instigator and rescued the captured lady person and there was still time left over in the ep. Aaaaand Stamets jumped them to the mirrorverse, wow.

The war isn't over yet. Its still going on and will continue until they get back.

New Captain Tilly to Killy was great, haha, but I'm going to assume that this mirrorverse stuff won't stick. Was surprised when Tyler the Burnham boyfriend killed Stamets' boyfriend. Sooo I'm going to assume Stamets would go evil from the loss or they'll bring back a mirrorverse doctor boyfriend with them.

That was an epic twist!

I'm actually ok with Discovery. Things are just going way too fast.

I think that the show does better when you binge it rather than watch it week to week.

 

[Fero McPigletron]

Well, yes, Fuller does have an intentional pattern of giving the female leads of his series names that are stereotypically male, but the "too close to" comment misses the point a touch. For example, "Chuck" in Pushing Daisies is a nickname (the character's full name is Charlotte Charles, and "Charlotte" would be stereotypically female). For Wonderfalls, Wikipedia spells the lead character's name as "Jaye," which is a spelling often used with women (more often, in my experience, than with guys, although I've seen both), although there's no difference in pronunciation from the stereotypically male "Jay." Fuller's pretty happy to play with these things.

For a non-Fuller example that's relevant here, the full first name of "Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman" was Mikaela, but she was always called "Mike" (or perhaps more often, "Dr. Mike"). That's not to suggest that Ms. Burnham really is "Mikaela" (there's no evidence for this), but "Michael" really isn't so odd as all that.

I didn't watch Dr Quinn. Didn't know she was called Dr Mike, hehe. (Suddenly reminded of Fred from Angel, also a lady with a guy name, before she became Illyria. I watched Angel backwards by season and I remember hating the name).

Am just thinking Fuller could have used a male name that doesn't have a close female version. Like Trevor. Or Alvin. Or Nestor. Or just used an alien name like Syrok or Kerpel or Wiqq or something.

---
Finished s1. I liked Jason Isaacs' Captain Lorca so I'm disappointed that he was a mirrorverse guy. Him being ruthless was in the regular world was infuriating but oddly refreshing. I didn't need a evil counterpart to explain it. I'm sorry that he's gone.

So Captain Philippa Michelle Yeoh is the Section 31 person then? Ok.

Stamets' doctor boyfriend doesn't come back, huh.

Klingon torture lady leveraged a leadership role with the bombs? If I were Klingon, I would ask for proof that the bombs were really there and actively tied to her. The ending seems so abrupt when they just took her wrist machine thing at face value.

Oh, Tyler being the Klingon in subplots before as Voq was kinda lost in all the big stuff happening, after the reveal. If the actor played Voq then just remove his prosthetics to play Tyler, that's pretty cool acting from him.

Meeting the Enterprise cliffhanger, yeah, now I can see finally how Discovery led to Strange New Worlds. (I'll just ask later why SNW is awesome while Disco is... not as held in high regard?)

 

[The Predaking]

Finished s1. I liked Jason Isaacs' Captain Lorca so I'm disappointed that he was a mirrorverse guy. Him being ruthless was in the regular world was infuriating but oddly refreshing. I didn't need a evil counterpart to explain it. I'm sorry that he's gone.

I think everyone loved Lorca. I kept hoping that we would see the regular version of him, but I guess he died.

So Captain Philippa Michelle Yeoh is the Section 31 person then? Ok.

No, Empress Georgiou is the Section 31 person.

Stamets' doctor boyfriend doesn't come back, huh

I mean, it would be a shame for that twist death to just be undone.

Meeting the Enterprise cliffhanger, yeah, now I can see finally how Discovery led to Strange New Worlds. (I'll just ask later why SNW is awesome while Disco is... not as held in high regard?)

Well, Discovery has two flaws going for it.
1. It is a show built on seasonal plotlines, but not done very well. DS9 showed them that you can have season long plot arcs, but they really aren't executing them very well.
2. The characters are not as likeable as SNW's cast is. Pike vs Michael, Tall alien captain vs Number 1, Spock vs Stammets, on and on on, etc. The SNW cast is just more likeable, and their characters get to do some awesome stuff. Pike is the only person that can match Picard in giving a speech.

 

[Axaday]

I mean, it would be a shame for that twist death to just be undone.

That would be weird.

 

[Fero McPigletron]

A bad joke would be the twist death being the neck twist. Sorry sorry!

---
Saw s2 ep1 and 2. Anson Mount is in the main cast! So we're having him for a whole season, pre Strange New Worlds?! This is an SNW season zero?! Hope it's awesome!

First ep was pretty bombastic. That arrogant science officer dying right off that a nice blind side, since there was a red shirt right there, haha

The engineer whatshername with the flying mini drones was interesting. They gave her name (I forgot) but I hope she comes back. She seems cool plus very heroic.

Tilly is getting a lot of screen time now, oooo.

Ep2, ooookay is a religious theme. Sure, I like a nice 'believe in faith' story but, haha, this can all be explained by science.

People hiding in a church to escape WW3 in 2053? That's 28 years from now, OMscienceG.

All the past Trek stories where a person finds out about aliens either ends badly for them or they get brought along. I wanted Jacob, the guy who believed his family secret that science still rules, to get vindicated and to come along.

I'm actually fuzzy on the prime directive (Pike was just saying rule number 1) here. The people are humans who were transported from Earth. They're not an alien species. Even if they were generations past, they should not be treated like backwards aliens.

Re establish communication and tell them their true heritage. Ugh, don't let religion make them start doing believer non believer in fighting though.

Pike is cool but he keeps going on the planet missions. Saru is the real cool one. Does Saru hold a distinction for being the first alien species commanding an earth ship?

Angel, haha. It's just an alien. Two signals down, five to go. Tilly and Stamets have got this. Science your way through!

 

[Axaday]

Saw s2 ep1 and 2. Anson Mount is in the main cast! So we're having him for a whole season, pre Strange New Worlds?! This is an SNW season zero?! Hope it's awesome!

It isn't.

The engineer whatshername with the flying mini drones was interesting. They gave her name (I forgot) but I hope she comes back. She seems cool plus very heroic.

Is that Reno? I don't remember.

I'm actually fuzzy on the prime directive (Pike was just saying rule number 1) here. The people are humans who were transported from Earth. They're not an alien species. Even if they were generations past, they should not be treated like backwards aliens.

The Prime Directive isn't for species. It is for cultures.

Pike is cool but he keeps going on the planet missions. Saru is the real cool one. Does Saru hold a distinction for being the first alien species commanding an earth ship?

It isn't an Earth ship. It's a Federation Starfleet ship. I doubt he was the first, but he might be the earliest that we know in canon. Eleven years after this the USS Intrepid has a Vulcan captain. We don't know his/her name or how long they were in command. There's almost a century of virtually unknown Starfleet history. I would expect that a few Andorians and Vulcans were starship captains right from the outset, though.

 

[Cybersnark]

Does Saru hold a distinction for being the first alien species commanding an earth ship?

As others have noted, there've definitely been alien captains before in Starfleet, but there's actually a bit of real-world trivia to that:

See, when Roddenberry wrote the franchise bible (during the creation of TNG), he decreed that, since Star Trek is a human-centric series, and the Captain is effectively the lead character, the Captain of the show's cast must be human. We can see alien captains as guest characters, and high-ranking aliens in the crew, but the "hero" must always be a human, preferably from Earth.

I'm not sure if Saru has gotten his promotion where you are, but as of season 3 Captain Saru is, officially, the first time Trek has broken this rule on screen (they can technically get away with it because in this case the actual lead character is Burnham, regardless of her rank).

(* Note that Dal in Prodigy is not a real captain, and holo-Janeway ends up playing the traditional "captain/teacher" role.)

 

[The Predaking]

Saw s2 ep1 and 2. Anson Mount is in the main cast! So we're having him for a whole season, pre Strange New Worlds?! This is an SNW season zero?! Hope it's awesome!

Well, this season is the reason why we get SNW. Mount does such a great job this season that we all demanded to see more. So while the season might not be awesome, he does a great job.

First ep was pretty bombastic. That arrogant science officer dying right off that a nice blind side, since there was a red shirt right there, haha

The engineer whatshername with the flying mini drones was interesting. They gave her name (I forgot) but I hope she comes back. She seems cool plus very heroic.

Yeah, I think that she stays.

Tilly is getting a lot of screen time now, oooo.

I just never was a fan of Tilly.

Ep2, ooookay is a religious theme. Sure, I like a nice 'believe in faith' story but, haha, this can all be explained by science.

People hiding in a church to escape WW3 in 2053? That's 28 years from now, OMscienceG.

Yeah, more temporal issues. I didn't mind that much here though, knowing how the season plays out, it's more like something that The Doctor would do.

Pike is cool but he keeps going on the planet missions. Saru is the real cool one. Does Saru hold a distinction for being the first alien species commanding an earth ship?

As mentioned, the four main founders of the Federation had ships of their own, and when they joined the Federation they each got ships of their own to crew with entirely their own people. So there were Andorian, Telerite, and Vulcan captains already.

 

[Fero McPigletron]

Well, I meant Saru commanding an earth ship like maybe two Binars commanding a Vulcan Starfleet ship. A different species alien in command of an Earth Starfleet ship. It just seemed so easy for everybody to accept Saru. No pushback like Data in Next Gen commanding a ship during the Borg attack?

Even worse, to find out that Saru was the lone Kelpian off world (I'm past his focus ep where he becomes a predator) and they don't know anything about him (they don't know about the Ba ul or his physiology). This is pre TOS so I would think Earth starfleet would be more suspicious or there'd be more alien prejudice (like the Enterprise doctor Phlox being threatened in a bar).

But yeah, there's a lot of time between Enterprise and Discovery so possible that another alien was able to command an Earth ship and did such a good job that no one blinked an eye at Saru.

---
Watched 3 to 6

3 So... Voq's baby is... somewhere down the line related to Worf? Is the baby Mogh or something?

4 I like the exploding asteroid thing wanting to save his gathered info before he died and, yeah, Reno the engineer came back, cool. But Stamets and Reno trying to fix Tilly while that disaster was happening was odd. Maybe I missed a time factor in spore May's infection of Tilly but I akin the situation to being trapped in a house on fire but taking time to deal with someone's sordid love affair.

Also, I thought Saru was going to die! I got faked out!

5 Not wild at how they brought back Hugh the doctor boyfriend. Feels like Picard being positronic but with spores. Not really crazy about spore May so I'm fine with Tilly doesn't meet her again.

6 weird about this Kelpian vs Ba ul thing. The Ba ul wiped out the Kelpians 2000 years ago to save themselves so why keep them around and do the culling? There wasn't an explanation or a reason why the Ba ul needed them alive. Did Ba ul need adult Kelpian ganglia to live? Was there a symbiotic thing not revealed?

---
I'm not feeling the whole Spock thing (am retroactively thinking how funky it sounds that Spock as a human sister who is totally awesome and saved the universe a lot) and seeing Pike not in the yellow SNW look makes me pause. I'm ok with the more episodic nature of the eps tho (almost one signal per ep).

Side thing and I'm not looking for an answer but since they mentioned that the Red Angel is wearing a uniform and time travel is involed, it triggered a memory. I might have seen a spoiler in a TrekCulture or youtube video that included info on Discovery.

I... remember something like Burnham is the Red Angel in a suit? Don't tell me anything.

 

[Axaday]

Well, I meant Saru commanding an earth ship like maybe two Binars commanding a Vulcan Starfleet ship. A different species alien in command of an Earth Starfleet ship. It just seemed so easy for everybody to accept Saru. No pushback like Data in Next Gen commanding a ship during the Borg attack?

I don't think there are Earth ships. I think humans are just the most interested in doing this. In the pocket-verse the early Federation had mainly humans in Starfleet doing exploration, mainly Andorians patrolling the border in their old warships, mainly Tellerites running supplies, and mainly Vulcans doing science research. But by the days of the Constitution-class I don't think there was a separate fleet for science or security.

3 So... Voq's baby is... somewhere down the line related to Worf? Is the baby Mogh or something?

I don't remember anything about this. From the sound of things I'm going to have to repress it again.

5 Not wild at how they brought back Hugh the doctor boyfriend. Feels like Picard being positronic but with spores.

Yeah, it is pretty weird.

6 weird about this Kelpian vs Ba ul thing. The Ba ul wiped out the Kelpians 2000 years ago to save themselves so why keep them around and do the culling? There wasn't an explanation or a reason why the Ba ul needed them alive. Did Ba ul need adult Kelpian ganglia to live? Was there a symbiotic thing not revealed?

I think they eat them.

Side thing and I'm not looking for an answer but since they mentioned that the Red Angel is wearing a uniform and time travel is involed, it triggered a memory. I might have seen a spoiler in a TrekCulture or youtube video that included info on Discovery.

I... remember something like Burnham is the Red Angel in a suit? Don't tell me anything.

I'm not telling you anything, turkey.

 

[Cybersnark]

I don't think there are Earth ships. I think humans are just the most interested in doing this.

Yeah, I mean, there's probably a local guard or militia for Earth specifically (We know Vulcan still has the Expeditionary Fleet [that's what Burnham wanted to join before Sarek vetoed it], the Andorian Imperial Guard may still exist, etc), but Starfleet itself is a Federation-wide service.

In the pocket-verse the early Federation had mainly humans in Starfleet doing exploration, mainly Andorians patrolling the border in their old warships, mainly Tellerites running supplies, and mainly Vulcans doing science research. But by the days of the Constitution-class I don't think there was a separate fleet for science or security.

My old head-canon was that the Klingon war is what caused the fleet to become more integrated; Klingons have gotten very good at killing humans, Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites individually. As the war drags on, Starfleet's casualties mount and they just don't have enough warm bodies to man their ships, so they have no choice but to start mixing-and-matching crews; a handful of Vulcans and a Tellarite end up on a mostly-Andorian ship, some human Academy graduates get drafted into a Vulcan crew, a Tellarite merchantman hires a Vulcan navigator and some Andorian marines, etc.

Suddenly the Klingons are on the back foot; turns out that the strategies that work against one enemy don't work against others. Starfleet becomes unpredictable; a ship will run from a fight like Tellarites, then suddenly turn and attack with Andorian fury, or a passive Vulcan scout ship suddenly turns pirate to steal Klingon supplies, or an Andorian battleship suddenly unleashes Crazy Super-Science HijinksTM that could only have come from a human.

Of course, the Klingons (with their ideas of racial purity and natural hierarchy) see this as cheating --they see the Federation as a human-dominated empire that has subjugated the Vulcans and Andorians (just as the Klingons have enslaved or subjugated others), so they'd see it as disgraceful and cowardly to suddenly rely on them as equals.

 

[Tuxedo Prime]

My old head-canon was that the Klingon war is what caused the fleet to become more integrated....<snippety>

What was that thing about minds thinking alike?

Anyway, while no-one could prove that a certain fan film project got the heavy end of the hammer due to the then-impending Discovery S1, the release timing seemed a bit suspicious to me.

But that's all blood under the bridge now, at least to me. Still, your quoted bit above suggested to me that it would be a good time to remind everyone of a ... more Okuda-styled take on a pre-TOS Federation-Klingon conflict?

While Peters' reach exceeded... just about everything, he did assemble a great cast for this, and remembered someone (two someones!) to whom James Kirk looked up, as was stated in TOS proper.