Star Trek: The Original Series and The Next Generation

[G.B.Blackrock]

And look where that got him.

The simple fact of the matter is that the Enterprise needed to destroy the CE. If they didn't then they would be responsible for everyone else it would kill afterwards and all the worlds it would strip mine. This creature served no purpose other than galactic destruction as it required to do so to continue to exist.

It bears repeating, I don't dispute that the CE likely needed destroying. The dispute is in this "kill first, ask questions later" attitude certain people are employing. I will never agree to that kind of morality. Such deadly force should be used if and only if other avenues have been explored, to the extent such can be done safely.

(Which, and I want to be absolutely clear on this, specifically allows for a life-and-death situation when such force must be used, because a less violent solution is not available without putting lives at risk).

In the specific case we're talking about, there was a possibility being explored that had potential to yield a non-violent solution, without undue risk to the crew. If such could not be found, Picard would have taken the CE out himself. He did not recieve that chance. Dr. Marr was very much in the wrong. To me, it's unambiguous.

 

[Donocropolis]

It bears repeating, I don't dispute that the CE likely needed destroying. The dispute is in this "kill first, ask questions later" attitude certain people are employing. I will never agree to that kind of morality. Such deadly force should be used if and only if other avenues have been explored, to the extent such can be done safely.

(Which, and I want to be absolutely clear on this, specifically allows for a life-and-death situation when such force must be used, because a less violent solution is not available without putting lives at risk).

In the specific case we're talking about, there was a possibility being explored that had potential to yield a non-violent solution, without undue risk to the crew. If such could not be found, Picard would have taken the CE out himself. He did not recieve that chance. Dr. Marr was very much in the wrong. To me, it's unambiguous.

One could easily imagine that humanoid life was so different from the Crystaline Entity that it didn't even recognize the planets it consumed as being populated. No one judges a whale for eating plankton, after all. There was the very real possibility that communication could have been established with the CE so that it could come to understand what it was doing and be redirected towards planets without intelligent life.

Like you said, that may not have been how things shook out, but it was worth a try.

 

[Copper Bezel]

(Discovery S4 thing) Which is not coincidentally the situation in the Discovery arc, and is in fact resolved with a conversation once communication is possible.

while gene certainly had issues with women, in the context of his day he was a very liberal man in his attitudes on any number of social issues. clearly society has moved past the boundaries of his vision, and it did so in his lifetime... which is why there's the discrepancy in tng.

Yeah, I think that's the best way to sum it up, and part of why TNG is sometimes cringe inducing for me in ways TOS isn't. There are aspects of Roddenberry's outlook that were ahead of the time in TOS that were decidedly not so forward-thinking twenty years later.

 

[The Predaking]

One could easily imagine that humanoid life was so different from the Crystaline Entity that it didn't even recognize the planets it consumed as being populated. No one judges a whale for eating plankton, after all. There was the very real possibility that communication could have been established with the CE so that it could come to understand what it was doing and be redirected towards planets without intelligent life.

Like you said, that may not have been how things shook out, but it was worth a try.

So just let it strip mine worlds? I am trying to see what the peaceful solution to this problem is. You only have X amount of worlds with Organic life on them. Now you have to constantly be scouting out new worlds that fit the description and literally feeding them to the CE. It's a logical problem. Monster eats worlds and destroys ships it finds. Therefore, the Monster must be destroyed to preserve life.

 

[The Predaking]

It bears repeating, I don't dispute that the CE likely needed destroying. The dispute is in this "kill first, ask questions later" attitude certain people are employing. I will never agree to that kind of morality. Such deadly force should be used if and only if other avenues have been explored, to the extent such can be done safely.

(Which, and I want to be absolutely clear on this, specifically allows for a life-and-death situation when such force must be used, because a less violent solution is not available without putting lives at risk).

In the specific case we're talking about, there was a possibility being explored that had potential to yield a non-violent solution, without undue risk to the crew. If such could not be found, Picard would have taken the CE out himself. He did not recieve that chance. Dr. Marr was very much in the wrong. To me, it's unambiguous.

This isn't a kill first situation, The CE has devastated numerous worlds and the Federation is well aware of it.

What is the non-violent solution? I keep hearing that. The creature literally feeds on the energy from organic life. Just like the time traveling snake aliens, sometimes their is no alternative, and the CE is one of those times. Its simple logic. Monster solely exists to destroy organic life, even if you can communicate with that monster, what does it matter? You aren't going to feed it entire worlds to strip mine and you aren't going to reform it.

Dr. Marr took away their chance to talk to it first, but I bet when she got home, they threw a parade for her. It's unambiguous to you because the show framed it that way, just like they framed Jelico as a bad captain. It's just another thing that they got wrong.

 

[Copper Bezel]

The whole. Damn. Point. Is that they didn't know whether or not an alternative existed. They didn't know, we honestly don't know now. The thing you're insisting, that the CE could not survive by any other means than eating whole planets of life, is the thing that there was a small but real chance might not be the case. We do not have complete information, and Picard has even less because he hasn't seen the end of the episode yet. This is a silly hill to die on if (unlike ooo-baby) you're not just treating this as some dumb revenge thing and we're actually disagreeing about the unknowns in the fictional universe.

 

[The Predaking]

I am legitimately debating this point. It's all conjecture, but we know that the CE eats organic life, and completely strip mines planets. That is taken from the episodes it was in. Picard himself literally says this in the episode.

We know that it can communicate, as it responded to Lore and the Enterprise before Dr. Marr killed it. However, I would like to point out that all of it's known previous communications had been when Lore was telling it where to go for food. So, it is quite possible that CE was just waiting for directions to its next meal when Dr Marr killed it.

I am legitimately saying that to destroy the creature that has literally killed hundred of thousands of people, destroyed numerous worlds, and would continue to do so to literally survive, is not a moral dilemma. As I first said, it's not like they are going to get this thing a job at Target.

Give Dr. Marr her flowers and a holiday, as millions of people are alive in the Alpha Quadrant because of her.

 

[Donocropolis]

I am legitimately debating this point. It's all conjecture, but we know that the CE eats organic life, and completely strip mines planets. That is taken from the episodes it was in. Picard himself literally says this in the episode.

We know that it can communicate, as it responded to Lore and the Enterprise before Dr. Marr killed it. However, I would like to point out that all of it's known previous communications had been when Lore was telling it where to go for food. So, it is quite possible that CE was just waiting for directions to its next meal when Dr Marr killed it.

I am legitimately saying that to destroy the creature that has literally killed hundred of thousands of people, destroyed numerous worlds, and would continue to do so to literally survive, is not a moral dilemma. As I first said, it's not like they are going to get this thing a job at Target.

Give Dr. Marr her flowers and a holiday, as millions of people are alive in the Alpha Quadrant because of her.

You and I survive by eating organic life. We all do. It's possible that the CE could be converted into a vegan, eating only non-intelligent organic life. Or it may even be possible to find a way to replicate the type of energy that the CE needs without eating actual life. Like others have said, it's not that there was 100% chance that a peaceful solution could be found, but there were definitely alternatives to TRY first.

 

[Sabrblade]

If the CE needed to feed on salt, they could have just given it the order number for Space McDonalds.

 

[The Predaking]

You and I survive by eating organic life. We all do.

Yes, we do. We don't strip mind worlds of it though. There is a huge difference here as well as the lack of balance between the environment and the consumer, as the CE just destroys everything. Functionally, its no different that the Doomsday worm in TOS.

It's possible that the CE could be converted into a vegan, eating only non-intelligent organic life.

So we now have to go scout out worlds without intelligent life for it to Strip mine now? Or do we trust it to make the distinction between them? Remember the speed of which it strip mines planets and how often Starfleet would have to find these worlds, and escort it to them. And we aren't talking about using a science vessel here, we need something with shields like the Enterprise that can withstand the CE. Not to mention the top of the line warp speed it will need to scout for planets. So now in this scenario, we are tasking our top of the line ship to constantly be hunting for worlds to destroy just to keep the CE alive and away from populated ones.

Or it may even be possible to find a way to replicate the type of energy that the CE needs without eating actual life.

Well, let's consider that. It has fed on numerous colonies, space ships, and the like. So it has tasted the energy that Star Fleet uses and found it incompatible with its needs, as the facilities and ships it has ran across are usually left intact. I will admit that this is conjecture on my part, but it fits the story. Also, let's consider that this thing is massive and strip mines planets in a matter of minutes, so the power demands would be tremendous. Beyond what even the Enterprise D could produce I would wager.

Like others have said, it's not that there was 100% chance that a peaceful solution could be found, but there were definitely alternatives to TRY first.

Logically, none of them are very likely to work, with the alternate energy plan having the highest rate of sucess. Even if they did work though, the outcomes are still not desirable. The CE's days were numbered, and just because the crew were upset that they couldn't try to domesticate this world killing space monster, doesn't mean that Dr Marr was wrong. I am just saying that the episode frames it as this horrible thing that she did, when in reality, all she did was just skip step 3 and went straight on to step 4.

 

[Donocropolis]

Yes, we do. We don't strip mind worlds of it though. There is a huge difference here as well as the lack of balance between the environment and the consumer, as the CE just destroys everything. Functionally, its no different that the Doomsday worm in TOS.



So we now have to go scout out worlds without intelligent life for it to Strip mine now? Or do we trust it to make the distinction between them? Remember the speed of which it strip mines planets and how often Starfleet would have to find these worlds, and escort it to them. And we aren't talking about using a science vessel here, we need something with shields like the Enterprise that can withstand the CE. Not to mention the top of the line warp speed it will need to scout for planets. So now in this scenario, we are tasking our top of the line ship to constantly be hunting for worlds to destroy just to keep the CE alive and away from populated ones.



Well, let's consider that. It has fed on numerous colonies, space ships, and the like. So it has tasted the energy that Star Fleet uses and found it incompatible with its needs, as the facilities and ships it has ran across are usually left intact. I will admit that this is conjecture on my part, but it fits the story. Also, let's consider that this thing is massive and strip mines planets in a matter of minutes, so the power demands would be tremendous. Beyond what even the Enterprise D could produce I would wager.



Logically, none of them are very likely to work, with the alternate energy plan having the highest rate of sucess. Even if they did work though, the outcomes are still not desirable. The CE's days were numbered, and just because the crew were upset that they couldn't try to domesticate this world killing space monster, doesn't mean that Dr Marr was wrong. I am just saying that the episode frames it as this horrible thing that she did, when in reality, all she did was just skip step 3 and went straight on to step 4.

Really it comes down to the level of intelligence that the CE has. It may not be necessary to do any scouting or escorting. If the CE was an intelligent being, just one alien enough that it hadn't ever considered the possibility of it's food being sapient, then it may be able to avoid intelligent life all by itself once it had been made aware.

Or, if energy could be synthesized for it, maybe there would even be the possibility of some sort of symbiotic relationship. It's an enormous being capable of "biological" warp speed travel. Create a massive matter/antimatter power generator coupled to whatever is needed to tune that energy into something the CE can feed on, then add some crew quarters and travel with it similar to Gomtuu from the Tin Man episode.

Again, none of this may be possible, but there is a huge difference between executing something as a last resort, and murdering something before any attempt is made to resolve the situation peacefully. That's the crime that Dr. Marr committed.

 

[The Predaking]

Another thing to consider, if we want to discuss this honestly. I went back and watched the CE's first appearance. Lore can and does simply talk to it, and it listens to him. This creature didn't need graviton pulses to understand humans, so it understood them just fine as it was destroying their worlds, ships, and the millions of people. It wasn't a lack of communication, as the creature is aware of what it is doing.

 

[Donocropolis]

Another thing to consider, if we want to discuss this honestly. I went back and watched the CE's first appearance. Lore can and does simply talk to it, and it listens to him. This creature didn't need graviton pulses to understand humans, so it understood them just fine as it was destroying their worlds, ships, and the millions of people. It wasn't a lack of communication, as the creature is aware of what it is doing.

That is true. The DataLore episode had a few "early installment weirdness" bits to it, like the whole "shut up Wesley" scene, which was pretty out-of-character for Picard, and Data using a contraction at the end even though his inability to do so had been a major plot point earlier in the episode. But, if it's canon that Lore could just speak plainly with the CE and even create complex plots involving keeping track of the names of individual officers, then it would have to be concluded that the CE not only KNEW that it was eating intelligent beings, but was actively planning to thwart those beings' attempts at avoiding being eaten. If that held true, then it would definitely be unlikely that any real peace could be made with the entity and destroying it would be the way to go.

 

[Donocropolis]

I've had some time to think about it, and in DataLore, what could Lore have possibly thought that the CE would do with the information that he (Lore) was impersonating Data? Was the entity supposed to call up and ask for him by name? Was the CE also supposed to be traveling under an alias? Was a fake mustache and a hat involved?

 

[Sabrblade]

I've had some time to think about it, and in DataLore, what could Lore have possibly thought that the CE would do with the information that he (Lore) was impersonating Data? Was the entity supposed to call up and ask for him by name? Was the CE also supposed to be traveling under an alias? Was a fake mustache and a hat involved?

Turns out the CE was Snidely Whiplash all along!

 

[TM2-Megatron]

Another thing to consider, if we want to discuss this honestly. I went back and watched the CE's first appearance. Lore can and does simply talk to it, and it listens to him. This creature didn't need graviton pulses to understand humans, so it understood them just fine as it was destroying their worlds, ships, and the millions of people. It wasn't a lack of communication, as the creature is aware of what it is doing.

Well... all we really saw was Lore speak to it through the Enterprise's computer. We don't know exactly how he may have programmed it prior... he's as fast as Data and had previously devised a method of communication with the CE, so he could've written up a translation program for the Enterprise's computer in seconds that translated his speech into some kind of subspace pulses or something that resonated within the CE's structure, wiping it afterwards so nobody else on the Enterprise would be able to try to undermine his influence over the creature.

 

[G.B.Blackrock]

Even if we assume that Lore's conversation proves that the CE was irredeemably evil (and I'd dispute that, but we're stipulating here), Picard and company still can't possibly know that. This changes nothing.

 

[Destron D-69]

it changes our outside perspective. so we can understand the crew's plight with their more limited knowledge, we can also see that killing it was good and right and correct and those are the main 3 types of okay thumbsup!

lol... convince it to only eat vegan planets.... ask Norrin Radd how well that plan works

 

[LBD "Nytetrayn"]

 

[The Predaking]

Even if we assume that Lore's conversation proves that the CE was irredeemably evil (and I'd dispute that, but we're stipulating here), Picard and company still can't possibly know that. This changes nothing.

Oh come on now. Let's be honest here. Lore's conversation and their ability to plot a way for them to eat the Enterprise, shows the CE is quite aware of what it is doing. It doesn't care about other life, it wants to feed to live. Whether that is evil or not depends on whether you're the whale or the plankton. As for whether Picard and crew knew, considering that they uncovered Lore's plot at the end of the CE's debut episode, they can deduce that the CE is sentient and what they were up to.

I know that the episode wants you to feel that the CE's destruction was wrong, but the episode itself is wrong. It's another Jelico moment. And I am wondering how many of them there are in TNG now. I can think of a few in DS9.