Thread of Thoughts, Questions (and Maybe Even Answers) That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread

[LBD "Nytetrayn"]

Yeah, had some thoughts earlier that I wanted to put out there, but don't think there's much of a thread for them*, and figured I'd just make a catch-all thread for on-topic idle chatter.

One came up when I was watching The Rebirth on the 24/7 Hasbro Pulse stream earlier, and I couldn't help but wonder if these final episodes were intended to have Optimus Prime originally. That is, did they add him in when things got reduced from five to three episodes, or at some other point in the process? Or did work on it not begin until after Hasbro rushed Return of Optimus Prime out?

On an entirely different note, I was thinking about RiD 2001 earlier, and couldn't help but wonder what it must have been like for kids -- perhaps more likely those in the States than in Japan, since the toy never came out here -- at the time to see Fortress Maximus suddenly transform from a city/base into a ginormous robot for the first time. It'd been almost 15 years since there was last a Transformer of that size or scale on TV. And even then, they made Brave Maximus look absolutely gargantuan compared to how G1 usually tended to make them look.

I like to think that little minds were blown.


* Unless there is, and I forgot about it, and I can just merge this with it.

 

[lastmaximal]

I maintain that one of my favorite parts of The Rebirth is Optimus Prime hearing out Alpha Trion's vague technobabbly predictions about the Plasma Energy Chamber and responding, in a tone that feels sharp for Peter Cullen, "Alpha Trion... THAT MAKES NO SENSE!".

So for that, I'm glad Optimus was around.

I've also had the S3/4 Live playing in the background of late (it seems to always be the same handful of episodes, though, and I've never gotten to Rebirth), which is why the blue/white disguise for Rodimus has been top of mind (mentioned it in the repaint concept thread). Still feel it's an underrated season, although even I'm very annoyed at how cheap and low-end it seems thanks to the death of a thousand cuts of weird animation errors.

It's all the more irksome that Optimus just big fat comes back to life as Rodimus seems to be getting a handle on things, but then again, they have Rodimus doing that on and off anyway (sometimes clunkily so, as in The Ultimate Weapon) so maybe if there had been a few more episodes after The Burden Hardest To Bear they'd have swung him back to impostor syndrome mode again (I've always related so much more to Rodimus), to relearn that lesson in another episode. But the war profiteering eps, the having to battle a zombie Optimus, the programming vs personality bits in The Killing Jar, the question of pacifists' role in a war, survivors guilt (and regular guilt) in Chaos... It's not always handled well, but there are some pretty intriguing topics touched on here.

LBD, do you want to make this the Random Transformers Show Rambling thread or something? I'm also not sure if there's any catch-all threads.

 

[Sabrblade]

One came up when I was watching The Rebirth on the 24/7 Hasbro Pulse stream earlier, and I couldn't help but wonder if these final episodes were intended to have Optimus Prime originally. That is, did they add him in when things got reduced from five to three episodes, or at some other point in the process? Or did work on it not begin until after Hasbro rushed Return of Optimus Prime out?

Considering that there was a whole 9-month gap between the end of season 3 and the three-part season 4, I'd say it's fair to say that production on "The Rebirth" didn't start until after all production of season 3 (including "The Return of Optimus Prime") was done and over with.

 

[LordGigaIce]

It's all the more irksome that Optimus just big fat comes back to life as Rodimus seems to be getting a handle on things

 

[lastmaximal]

See? Just relatable af.

It could be worse, I guess. He could be Scourge.

"Dweller" came on the other day and I burst out laughing at the camera *following Galvatron's fist* as he punched Scourge in the face.

(Pretty neat episode in general, some of the nicer/more detailed animation of the season).

 

[LBD "Nytetrayn"]

I've also had the S3/4 Live playing in the background of late (it seems to always be the same handful of episodes, though, and I've never gotten to Rebirth), which is why the blue/white disguise for Rodimus has been top of mind (mentioned it in the repaint concept thread). Still feel it's an underrated season, although even I'm very annoyed at how cheap and low-end it seems thanks to the death of a thousand cuts of weird animation errors.

Oh yeah. That was the year/season that solidified me as a fan. I enjoyed the first two seasons, but I didn't really start getting serious about it until the Aerialbots and Stunticons showed up. It kills me that my favorite seasons are also the worst-looking in so many parts.

It's all the more irksome that Optimus just big fat comes back to life as Rodimus seems to be getting a handle on things, but then again, they have Rodimus doing that on and off anyway (sometimes clunkily so, as in The Ultimate Weapon) so maybe if there had been a few more episodes after The Burden Hardest To Bear they'd have swung him back to impostor syndrome mode again (I've always related so much more to Rodimus), to relearn that lesson in another episode. But the war profiteering eps, the having to battle a zombie Optimus, the programming vs personality bits in The Killing Jar, the question of pacifists' role in a war, survivors guilt (and regular guilt) in Chaos... It's not always handled well, but there are some pretty intriguing topics touched on here.

It's annoying, but I guess I can't blame them, after everyone went nuts over Optimus dying. Maybe they could have found a better way to do it? But then, with only three episodes left...

All the same, sort of funny, what with Rodimus Prime still being featured for the '87 catalogue, and even the commericals (such as the Monsterbots clip that starts the last season, ironically enough).

LBD, do you want to make this the Random Transformers Show Rambling thread or something? I'm also not sure if there's any catch-all threads.

Not just yet. If there's some weird comic or toy-related or whatever musings, I don't want to exclude them, and I don't think this thread's big enough yet that it needs to be chopped up.

Considering that there was a whole 9-month gap between the end of season 3 and the three-part season 4, I'd say it's fair to say that production on "The Rebirth" didn't start until after all production of season 3 (including "The Return of Optimus Prime") was done and over with.

Ah, okay. I didn't see the production info on TFWiki -- might not have looked in the right place, though -- so I just mused over it.

Plus, I seem to recall animation taking a lot longer back then, so even knowing that, I couldn't be sure.

...on the other hand, the way AKOM handled it, they probably had the finished Rebirth episodes back before anyone could even ask for revisions.

"Dweller" came on the other day and I burst out laughing at the camera *following Galvatron's fist* as he punched Scourge in the face.

(Pretty neat episode in general, some of the nicer/more detailed animation of the season).

Yeah, I was just enjoying that the other day. "Say, that looks pretty dang good. Who did this one...?"

 

[LordGigaIce]

It's annoying, but I guess I can't blame them, after everyone went nuts over Optimus dying. Maybe they could have found a better way to do it? But then, with only three episodes left...

You wonder what could have happened...

Say the "Rodimus doubts himself" arc was wrapped up by the end of FFoD, and he was just overall more confident going forward.

Would audiences have warmed up to him? Would Optimus not need to come back? Or was that dye cast the moment Hasbro was inundated with complaints and horror stories about traumatized kids after seeing the '86 movie, and nothing could have saved Rodimus?

At the very least Rodimus overcoming his insecurities at the start of the season would have made passing leadership back to Optimus seem like less an admission of failure?
As they told it Rodimus was just starting to get over his issues when Optimus comes back, and so it's easy to see him as just giving into the doubts that were always there. Had those doubts been vanquished earlier it would read less as "Rodimus realized he was right to listen to his clinical anxiety" and more like "oh snap things are serious and we have to stop at nothing to fix things even if it means bringing back a warrior like Optimus."

All the same, sort of funny, what with Rodimus Prime still being featured for the '87 catalogue, and even the commericals (such as the Monsterbots clip that starts the last season, ironically enough).

At the very least they should have ran with Optimus and Rodimus both being Primes once Optimus came back. Like... Optimus doesn't revert to Orion without the Matrix. Why can't Rodimus stay Rodimus even if the Matrix is with Optimus?

Buffy did something like that. Like the Prime, the Slayer was a single special individual imbued by mystical powers, and those powers get passed on to someone else once the current person dies.

Buffy plays with that by having Buffy technically die for two minutes before being revived. Yet when she dies the Slayer powers pass to Kendra. Buffy still has Slayer powers when she's revived, but Kendra is also a slayer and establishes a whole new branch. She dies and her Slayer powers pass to Faith, despite Buffy still being alive and well.

So Rodimus being a Prime alongside Optimus could have worked. Granted, they didn't have much time to play with that dynamic but still. It would have been fun and a good way to bring Optimus back without crapping all over Rodimus' journey of self discovery and empowerment.

One more reason why JG1 is better (even then though, Optimus dies pretty early into Headmasters... but at least they make it seem like he and Rodimus are both worthy Primes).

 

[Sabrblade]

Ah, okay. I didn't see the production info on TFWiki -- might not have looked in the right place, though -- so I just mused over it.

Plus, I seem to recall animation taking a lot longer back then, so even knowing that, I couldn't be sure.

...on the other hand, the way AKOM handled it, they probably had the finished Rebirth episodes back before anyone could even ask for revisions.

All four seasons of the G1 cartoon has months-long gaps between them.

Season 1 ended in December 1984, Season 2 began in September 1985: 9 months

Season 2 ended in January 1986, Season 3 began in September 1986: 8 months

Season 3 ended in February 1987, Season 4 began in November 1987: 9 months

 

[lastmaximal]

You wonder what could have happened...

Say the "Rodimus doubts himself" arc was wrapped up by the end of FFoD, and he was just overall more confident going forward.

Would audiences have warmed up to him? Would Optimus not need to come back? Or was that dye cast the moment Hasbro was inundated with complaints and horror stories about traumatized kids after seeing the '86 movie, and nothing could have saved Rodimus?

I'm sure that would HELP, but nothing's going to un-trauma that trauma. Audiences might have warmed to him more, or more quickly, but the damage is done. It's early days for the brand, so you don't quite have the comparative older worldview or detachment of a BW viewer meeting Primal. Older viewers would be cynical and suspicious of the shilled new leader, younger viewers would still be caught up in the "I don't WANT another puppy, I want my dog that died" emotional turmoil of it.

The backlash was more from killing off Optimus than any flaw Rodimus had. If he'd have been built up to become competent and confident at any point, that would just get the response of "oh, now they're trying to stuff him down our throats like some perfect successor, but nothing was worth killing Optimus over" (never mind that he had a character arc rather than being effortlessly The Guy, ironically like Optimus was -- this is not a rational response). Or charitably, "it's just not the same." It's a no-win situation. Everyone's a pale imitation and impostor: Ultra Magnus gets the Matrix, gets killed after uttering a line that reduced him to a meme forever. And now it's Hot Rod, the guy who got Optimus killed in the first place? Can we have Magnus instead?

The Buffy example is a good one, and many other media examples have played with the succession and title tropes since too, but the contexts are too different imo for that to really apply as neatly.

One of the reasons I've long meant to get into Headmasters is to see Rodimus get a longer tenure written as THE leader, not a begrudging placeholder. Another is the notion of seeing him and Optimus work in tandem (as you said, too short-lived a try). But I don't think we've ever really gotten just that on an extended basis. Early Botcon talked about one offscreen project, which was essentially a failure, and he was more of a throwback side character in the Wreckers. Energon had him in a totally different side role, and, well, it was Energon. IDW, once it put him in an extended leadership role with MTMTE, ramped up his other flawed traits to 12.

And now Bumblebee and Optimus Prime have basically divided up his belongings (ONE even gives Op the flamethrowing pipes) and his narrative parking space, so who knows.

 

[Blot]

All four seasons of the G1 cartoon has months-long gaps between them.

Season 1 ended in December 1984, Season 2 began in September 1985: 9 months

Season 2 ended in January 1986, Season 3 began in September 1986: 8 months

Season 3 ended in February 1987, Season 4 began in November 1987: 9 months

Congratulations, it's a bouncing baby new product assortment!

 

[LordGigaIce]

One of the reasons I've long meant to get into Headmasters is to see Rodimus get a longer tenure written as THE leader, not a begrudging placeholder. Another is the notion of seeing him and Optimus work in tandem (as you said, too short-lived a try). But I don't think we've ever really gotten just that on an extended basis.

Of the three JG1 shows (sorry Zone) Headmasters is easily the worst one. It just sort of drags a lot of the time. Victory starts slow but ramps up, and Masterforce is just pretty great all the way through. Headmasters very much feels like a first attempt.
It's not bad, really. I still prefer it over Rebirth, but it is worth noting just so you know what you're getting into

One reason I still like it despite pacing issues, however, is because it gives Rodimus and the rest of the season three cast a proper sendoff. The cast is a mix of S3 characters and new '87 characters with some '84-'85 stragglers.
And while the new cast eventually supplants the old (the show is called Headmasters after all) the '86 cast gets more of a proper two season run to transition out to the new guys. Rodimus gets a chance to be The Guy without constantly wondering if he's good enough and he and Optimus have a sweet team up that sells Rodimus as a true successor, brief as it is.

Spoiler

A funny thing is that in S3 Rodimus was willing to give the Matrix to anyone- Magnus, Springer, Zombie Optimus- and didn't even seem upset to give it back to Optimus when he came back for real.
In Headmasters though? Once it's time to transition the full focus to the new cast Rodimus just names Fortress Maximus the new Supreme Commander but leaves for deep space with the Matrix! That's why none of the JG1 exclusive Autobot leaders are Primes/Convoys. Rodimus is still technically out there, hogging the Matrix. Dude went from willing to give it up to anyone to being "mine now."

 

[Haywire]

Headmasters does have a few decent bits, like the aforementioned Optimus/Rodimus team up. And there's the episodes with the Battle Beasts. There's just so much not great, like Arcee's character being poorly handled, and Galvatron getting beaten by a friendship circle (still unclear how that worked!?!). I think, though, if someone put some time into a guided "best of" list of episodes, there's a lot of good TF lore in there.

 

[DefaultOption]

I've got one: was there ever an in-fiction occasion where Metroplex used his ability to combine with the Scramble City limb-bots?

(I would assume that if there is it's somewhere in the JG1 manga, but idk.)

 

[Sabrblade]

I've got one: was there ever an in-fiction occasion where Metroplex used his ability to combine with the Scramble City limb-bots?

(I would assume that if there is it's somewhere in the JG1 manga, but idk.)

And the answer to that is... negative.

 

[CoffeeHorse]

Say the "Rodimus doubts himself" arc was wrapped up by the end of FFoD, and he was just overall more confident going forward.

They certainly should have tried. The setup to do this was already right there with the history lesson. Rodimus doubts himself because he's not Optimus. But there's this whole ancient lineage of earlier Primes that weren't Optimus either. They still brought something to the table. Rodimus should have seen the bigger picture and spent part 5 coming to terms with what he brings to the table, so he could spend the rest of the season doing his thing.

 

[LBD "Nytetrayn"]

Would audiences have warmed up to him? Would Optimus not need to come back? Or was that dye cast the moment Hasbro was inundated with complaints and horror stories about traumatized kids after seeing the '86 movie, and nothing could have saved Rodimus?

Now that I think about it, just how many kids actually were traumatized by that in theaters, anyway?

The movie wasn't exactly a box office success -- I sure couldn't get my parents to take me to see it. And a good chunk of those ticket sales had to have gone to parents taking their kids.

Meanwhile, Season 3 was done and dusted by the time the movie hit home video. I saw Optimus return to life before I even saw him die!

I've got one: was there ever an in-fiction occasion where Metroplex used his ability to combine with the Scramble City limb-bots?

(I would assume that if there is it's somewhere in the JG1 manga, but idk.)

Y'know, I was just thinking about this earlier. After all, we use "Scramble City" to describe the style of combiner, but it's moreso -- or at least as much -- a title for Metroplex, is it not?

 

[Sabrblade]

After all, we use "Scramble City" to describe the style of combiner, but it's moreso -- or at least as much -- a title for Metroplex, is it not?

In Japan it is the name of his City Mode, yes. But, just to make things more confusing, it's also used as an alternate name for the whole of Autobot City itself (whose proper Japanese name was already "Cybertron City", since the Autobots are called "Cybertrons" in Japan).

 

[lastmaximal]

Y'know, I was just thinking about this earlier. After all, we use "Scramble City" to describe the style of combiner, but it's moreso -- or at least as much -- a title for Metroplex, is it not?

I've tended to use "scramble-type", myself (and I'm sure I just picked that up from others hereabouts). When first encountering it I just assumed it referred to "the type of combiner featured in 'Scramble City' ".

They certainly should have tried. The setup to do this was already right there with the history lesson. Rodimus doubts himself because he's not Optimus. But there's this whole ancient lineage of earlier Primes that weren't Optimus either. They still brought something to the table. Rodimus should have seen the bigger picture and spent part 5 coming to terms with what he brings to the table, so he could spend the rest of the season doing his thing.

The funny thing is there seems to be much less moping in FFOD than later in the season anyway, partly because there's too much going on for it to really be the focus. Part 1 has him being super informal at the galactic olympics and then stupidly getting bodied by a bunch of weakened Decepticons, part 2 has him in a vision-laden coma, part 3 has him taking out the Goo machine, part 4 has him going back into the vision coma, and part 5 has him mostly just reacting to things. There may be a bit of self-reproach here and there but not really enough to set up an arc yet. If anything the storytelling does a better job of showing that he's still very Hot Rod, recklessly heroic and willing to Gordian-knot a situation even if the rope's holding him above a cliff.

It might have been nice to get this:

• FFOD: Rodimus is introduced as a cavalier (heh), less formal leader, reckless with himself and coming to terms with not being reckless about others. The revelations of the Quintessons and Cybertron's origins shake his confidence in (1) pulling the rug out from under his belief system and (2) showing him a whole lineage of Primes he has to live up to, or at least a whole histoty he needs to save from the Quintessons.
• A few episodes of him picking up leadership skills here and there and refining his approach, getting some momentum.
• Put Dark Awakening much earlier, serving as a major setback. Rewrite it so he's not super eager to just abandon his role, just relieved.
• Follow this with an episode or two of pyrrhic victories (having to jettison the power core in "Dweller", etc).
• End that cycle with "Burden Hardest to Bear".
• Round out the season with a string of episodes that have Rodimus recomitting to the role and the Autobots earning some solid wins.
• Never mind that jive, here's "The Return of Optimus Prime"!

 

[LordGigaIce]

Now that I think about it, just how many kids actually were traumatized by that in theaters, anyway?

Enough that Hasbro felt the pressure from angry phone calls and letters.

It's often about those that make the most noise. Whether or not they're the majority is inconsequential.

They certainly should have tried. The setup to do this was already right there with the history lesson. Rodimus doubts himself because he's not Optimus. But there's this whole ancient lineage of earlier Primes that weren't Optimus either. They still brought something to the table. Rodimus should have seen the bigger picture and spent part 5 coming to terms with what he brings to the table, so he could spend the rest of the season doing his thing.

Yeah. FFoD was set up perfectly for a "Rodimus doubts himself, but comes out of it sure that he's ready to do this" arc.

It's a good story for Rodimus to have, but stretching it over the course of a season is a bit much and didn't do much to help with his popularity. Kids aren't known for appreciating the slow burn.

Focus on it at the start, the Matrix spirit guide Primes all help him with his doubts, Optimus' spirit gives him a pat on the shoulder and an endorsement as the cherry on top, he's confident in himself now.

 

[lastmaximal]

I think the slow burn might have worked if there was at least some clear progression. (Also what I'd envisioned isn't THAT slow a burn, just not wrapping everything up neatly by the end of FFOD.) As opposed to the Aesop Amnesia that seemed to plague S3 as written.

But then again, this was on the regular network TV of the time, so who knew what episode you'd catch or miss. This may have contributed to the overall impression of Rodimus, as people probably kept missing episodes where the self-doubt didn't come up or wasn't an issue (or, I guess, those are less notable). There's also a fair few where Rodimus doesn't really feature. So it's possible to have an S3 experience where one saw a handful of unique episodes, and they were FFOD and "Burden" and "Ultimate Weapon" and a few where he or the Autobots aren't the focus ("Starscream's Ghost", "Thief in the Night", "The Killing Jar"). And of course The Return of Optimus Prime opens with him sulking AGAIN, which really doesn't help.

Another tangent: it's a bit weird since I should have no childhood attachment to it, as my main S3-4 memories as a kid are very hazy S3 episode recollections and recording a couple of parts of Rebirth on an audio cassette next to the TV (family was genuinely not in the financial bracket that could casually afford a VCR and videocassettes)... But I've always really liked Dick Gautier's voice for Rodimus. Between the inflection and the light flanging, there's a warmth and character to it that, while not as iconic necessarily as Peter Cullen's voice for Optimus, I wouldn't give up for it either. It's a great fit for the snarky nature of the character as written, but can also take on a commanding or comfortable vibe. And the lower register compared to Judd Nelson's voice for Hot Rod in the movie (while still maintaining the same casual, less formal affect) mirrors the character's Matrix evolution nicely.