Traitor Watch - The 45 & 47 Thread

Axaday

Well-known member
Citizen
Here’s my issue:
Trump drops dead, his aura of chaos goes away with us being stuck with Vance and all the cronies Trump manages to put in place before he keels.
Trump is a glorified dancing monkey, but he has enough disruptive effects that he can screw up his OWN side as well as everyone else. Take him away? We get actual, scarily competent, evil fuckers running things and likely able to do so without a lot of attention being brought upon them. Then again, without his cult of personality, maybe people will actually pay attention to what people like Vance are actually trying to push upon the government and the people?

But I sill hold even odds Trump will not survive his second term. At 78, iffy health and declining mental state, if he doesn’t have a medical malady, then I almost suspect he’ll be quietly “25th’ed” and be propped as a figure head like Weekend at Bernies to cover for his declining mental faculties.
I remember being worried about DeSantis winning the primary, because he seemed to be Trump with more savvy and actual commitment. In the time since I haven't been sure about that savvy part.

When I was watching the VP debate, I found a different Vance than I expected. I wouldn't vote for him because what I found isn't what I like either, but I think he would improve with Trump's shadow off of him. Pence came to work for Trump because Trump needed mainline legitimacy, but this time around, whether literally or figuratively, Trump was needing an oath of loyalty. I assumed Vance would just be a toad. He may have taken the oath, but at his age an oath of loyalty to a 78-year-old man that can launch you into the national spotlight is not so hard. Vance is getting more out of the deal that Trump is. What I thought at the time was that they're going to lose and Vance is actually going to come out unscathed because he is smarter than that I expected. I think he surprised Walz too.

He's only scary to me in the sense of being a pretty electable Republican. If we're to have a Republican President, I think he'd be quite a bit better than Trump. I still think DeSantis would be worse.
 

Pale Rider

...and Hell followed with him.
Citizen
Something just occurred to me: if Trump manages to pull some bullshit and run for a third term, won't that make Obama eligible to run for a third term as well?
 

MrBlud

Well-known member
Citizen
No.

Trump running for a third term would mean that SCOTUS would need to invalidate the plain text of the 22nd Amendment (like they did the 14th!) but it will be some long baseless explanation that will only apply to Trump.

More likely I think is Trump is running as Vance’s VP and then just doing the rallies and whatnot like he’s still President. That would presumably still stop state lawsuits since they can’t stop a VP like they can’t stop a President.
 

The Mighty Mollusk

Scream all you like, 'cause we're all mad here
Citizen
With his age and health, I don't expect Trump to even survive to run for another term. But then again, the Reaper's been a prick about it lately.
 

wonko the sane?

You may test that assumption at your convinience.
Citizen
Republicans have spent a very long time instilling a hate for education and the educated into their base. Which largely translates to: the only electable republican is an idiot. Think about it, the only "smart" ones left are either long time incumbents (most of whom are bugging out.) or appointed. Vance (whom I only call smart because he is technically capable even though he's a ******* monster.) had to be picked by trump, and the supreme court justices were appointed.

This is not better: stupid people can do just as much damage as smart ones.
 

Pocket

jumbled pile of person
Citizen
Then again, without his cult of personality, maybe people will actually pay attention to what people like Vance are actually trying to push upon the government and the people?
I don't think the cult was even that important of a factor. Trump edged out Harris the same way Clinton beat Bush, by appealing to economic issues and the perennial assumption that the current president is always to blame for that and that replacing him with the guy in the opposite party can only ever be an improvement. Any other Republican would beaten Harris by just as much if not more.

The pendulum is always swinging. Gone are the days of one party dominating the election cycle for decades at a stretch, no matter how competent or popular they are and no matter how awful the other one is. The only important factors are: (1) the vast majority of voters are loyal to their party no matter what, ensuring they can never drop off the political landscape for long; and (2) everyone else is fickle and will throw the current regime under the bus as soon as things start to go badly for them, regardless of who or what the alternative is.
 

Axaday

Well-known member
Citizen
No.

Trump running for a third term would mean that SCOTUS would need to invalidate the plain text of the 22nd Amendment (like they did the 14th!) but it will be some long baseless explanation that will only apply to Trump.

More likely I think is Trump is running as Vance’s VP and then just doing the rallies and whatnot like he’s still President. That would presumably still stop state lawsuits since they can’t stop a VP like they can’t stop a President.
You cannot run for Vice President if you are not eligible to run for President.

However long Trump survives after his Presidency, if he doesn't get disgraced, he's going to settle into the kingmaker role. Similar to what he's done the last 4 years. He'll send out his opinions and call up politicians and tell them what to do and hold out his endorsement for people that meet his standards.
 

Axaday

Well-known member
Citizen
I don't think the cult was even that important of a factor. Trump edged out Harris the same way Clinton beat Bush, by appealing to economic issues and the perennial assumption that the current president is always to blame for that and that replacing him with the guy in the opposite party can only ever be an improvement. Any other Republican would beaten Harris by just as much if not more.

The pendulum is always swinging. Gone are the days of one party dominating the election cycle for decades at a stretch, no matter how competent or popular they are and no matter how awful the other one is. The only important factors are: (1) the vast majority of voters are loyal to their party no matter what, ensuring they can never drop off the political landscape for long; and (2) everyone else is fickle and will throw the current regime under the bus as soon as things start to go badly for them, regardless of who or what the alternative is.

Yeah. The very most important thing is the Republicans succeeded enough at telling people the economy was the most important issue and that's pretty easy to do when there's been inflation or unemployment. Harris needed to be successful enough at selling something else as being more important and she didn't get the job done. I'm surprised and disappointed because I saw a lot of things as more important and she did mention them. She went with Trump being a criminal and abortion. I can't tell you why the former didn't work. It's a pretty big deal. Abortion was a big failure and I wasn't thinking about it through the summer and into the Fall, but knowing where to look makes it easier to see in the rearview. Abortion is still legal in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin and not under threat. She frequently used the talking point that Trump would sign a national abortion ban and it was always a scare tactic and a reach. By and large, the states that lost abortion rights were all reliable red states and the new SCOTUS precedent that Trump helped get in place enforced it as a states rights issue. Trump wasn't threatening abortion rights in blue or swing states. She never should have made that a headliner. It may have cost her her chance in Georgia and North Carolina
 

Pocket

jumbled pile of person
Citizen
That's another good point. She tried to appeal to some hypothetical demographic of people who consider restoring abortion rights an important enough issue to base their whole vote around... and yet were still on the fence about who to vote for, and needed to be reminded every single commercial break where both she and Trump stand on the issue.

Meanwhile, we have Trump on camera saying he plans to declare himself dictator as his first official act as President. Why wasn't that the centerpiece of Harris's campaign? Because, sure, it's pathetic as hell that the Democrats could have only succeeded by running against someone that transparently evil, and by constantly reminding people that he is. But to have them constantly ignore it? Not only were they tossing aside their most powerful weapon, they were making it look like they personally don't even care.
 

wonko the sane?

You may test that assumption at your convinience.
Citizen
To be fair: in a sane, educated, reasonable society; when one candidate wants to protect the bodily rights of all, and the other wants to be an autocrat; why should the former talk about it? It's already out there! They are literally saying they want to rule and it shouldn't be a talking point, it's a disqualifying point!
 

Pocket

jumbled pile of person
Citizen
Because the media has been sweeping it under the rug and trying to prevent as many people as possible from knowing about it. So someone has to step up and fill the gap.
 

CoffeeHorse

Exhausted, but still standing.
Staff member
Council of Elders
Citizen
She went with Trump being a criminal and abortion. I can't tell you why the former didn't work. It's a pretty big deal.

I got arrested last year. I'm fine. Case is dismissed. I don't want to talk about it. But I spent a day in a crowded city jail. Sad place. I only met one other first timer the whole day. It was mostly repeat repeat repeat offenders in there. Lost of people busted for parole violations, all insisting that their parole officers are crooked and the system is designed to make them fail. People who have just given up.

At one point somebody in my cell had a medical episode (you don't need to know), and while the cell was being cleaned the rest of got stuffed into the cell next door. So for a long while I was stuck in a cell that was double capacity. It sucked.

Anyway, politics came up. So obviously Trump came up. Everyone in this double sized group, without exception, predicted that Trump was going to win. These guys also said the indictments smelled like bullshit. Now you might say of course this group would say that. But not necessarily. Trump's a straight white male billionaire. What does he know about a rigged system? He's on top of the rigged system, isn't he? But these guys didn't talk in those terms. These guys, wallowing in a massively overcrowded jail cell all day, felt sorry for him.
 

KidTDragon

Now with hi-res avatar!
Citizen
Trump Holds up Transition Process over Ethics Code
President-elect Donald J. Trump has not yet submitted a legally required ethics pledge stating that he will avoid conflicts of interest and other ethical concerns while in office, raising concerns that his refusal to do so will hamper the smooth transition to power.

Mr. Trump’s transition team was required to submit the ethics plan by Oct. 1, according to the Presidential Transition Act.

While the transition team’s leadership has privately drafted an ethics code and a conflict-of-interest statement governing its staff, those documents do not include language, required under the law, that explains how Mr. Trump himself will address conflicts of interest during his presidency.

Since Mr. Trump created his transition team in August, it has refused to participate in the normal handoff process, which typically begins months before the election.

It has missed multiple deadlines for signing required agreements governing the process. That has prevented Mr. Trump’s transition team from participating in national security briefings or gaining access to federal agencies to begin the complicated work of preparing to take control of the government on Jan. 20, 2025.

“While transition planning is private activity, it is deeply connected to the activity of our government and the stewardship of public resources,” said Max Stier, the president and chief executive of the Partnership for Public Service, a nonpartisan group that provides resources to candidates through the Center for Presidential Transition. “The avoidance of conflicts of interest and the appearance of conflicts of interest is critical to that task.”

On Thursday, the White House press secretary, Karine Jean-Pierre, said that President Biden’s chief of staff had reached out to the Trump transition team and that its officials “say they have an intent” to sign the agreements, but gave no indication of timing.

Last month, the leaders of the Trump transition team said that they intended to complete the required agreements with the General Services Administration and with the White House, known as memorandums of understanding. The transition co-chairs, Linda McMahon and Howard Lutnick, also said in a statement that “all transition staff have signed a robust ethics pledge as a requirement of their participation.”

A spokesman for the Trump transition team did not respond to a request for comment.
The Presidential Transition Act governs the complex process of handing over the byzantine operations of the federal government to a new executive in the two and a half months between Election Day and Inauguration Day.

In 2019, Congress amended that law to require candidates to create and publicly post an ethics plan before the election and to “include information on how eligible presidential candidates will address their own conflicts of interest during a presidential term.”

That bipartisan law was born in part out of concerns about ethical issues during the first Trump administration.

While Mr. Trump’s appointees were required to comply with ethical codes, Mr. Trump declared shortly before taking office that he would not divest his assets, nor would he place them in a blind trust.

Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, a watchdog group, has since identified more than 3,400 conflicts of interest tied to Mr. Trump during his first administration, among them holding political events and hosting foreign dignitaries at hotels and resorts owned by his company.

As part of their own transition efforts, both Mr. Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris submitted and posted ethics agreements, pledging to “avoid both actual and apparent conflicts of interest.” They also signed the memorandums of understanding in a timely manner.

The Trump transition’s ethics documents are silent on the question of Mr. Trump’s ethical conduct.
“He’s completely thumbing his nose at the idea that all Americans are participating in the same basic public enterprise,” said Representative Jamie Raskin, a Democrat from Maryland who last month wrote to Mr. Trump and urged him to comply with the Presidential Transition Act’s legal requirements.

Of particular note, Mr. Raskin said, was the fact that Mr. Trump’s transition team blew past the Sept. 1 deadline to sign the agreement with the General Services Administration. That document provides for a variety of services to be made available to the president-elect, including $7.2 million in funding for the costs of transition. But it also puts a $5,000 cap on individual donations to the transition and requires the public disclosure of all its donors.

By refusing to sign that agreement, Mr. Trump effectively faces no limit on contributions and does not need to name his donors publicly. Money raised by the transition is not regulated by any other government agency.

A separate concern involves the other memorandum of understanding, with the White House. Among other things, it sets the conditions under which the current administration can share sensitive government information with the incoming president’s team.

Until the Trump transition signs that document, the Biden administration is legally barred from providing it with the security clearances needed to share classified intelligence and national defense briefings, Mr. Stier said. It also cannot give transition employees physical access to the 438 different federal agencies that they will soon control, and it cannot allow them to review their files.

But by law, that agreement cannot be signed until an ethics plan that conforms to federal statute is submitted to the White House and posted online, creating something of a game of chicken between the outgoing Biden administration and the incoming Trump transition.

If neither side blinks, Mr. Trump’s team would be forced to assume control of the entire federal government cold. That, Mr. Stier said, could leave the country vulnerable at a critical moment.

“The consequences are severe,” Mr. Stier said. “It would not be possible to be ready to govern on Day 1.”

Off to a great start, as expected.
 

The Mighty Mollusk

Scream all you like, 'cause we're all mad here
Citizen
It's an agreement to abide by certain ethical standards, and he has no standards beyond Me First. Of course he won't sign it if he can avoid it.

The fact that he can avoid it is just another damning point against the whole system.
 

KidTDragon

Now with hi-res avatar!
Citizen
"You're required by law to sign this ethics document before taking office."
"And what happens if I don't?"
"Nothing."
"Then I'm not signing it."
"Okay. Enjoy plundering the country!"

If not signing it doesn't disqualify anyone from assuming the office, then why even have it?
 

wonko the sane?

You may test that assumption at your convinience.
Citizen
The bare minimum of a show of good faith: created in a time when 1 of the two parties in the US system weren't actively acting in bad faith.
 

Axaday

Well-known member
Citizen
There was a time when one would be afraid of the bad mark of not agreeing to sign it and there was a time when someone who went against it would look dishonored because they had signed it. That day is not this day. He probably will sign it. He definitely won't abide by it.
 

NovaSaber

Well-known member
Citizen

Under the bill, the Treasury secretary would issue notice to a group of intent to designate it as a “terrorist supporting organization.” Once notified, an organization would have the right to appeal within 90 days, after which it would be stripped of its 501(c)(3) status, named for the statute that confers tax exemptions on recognized nonprofit groups.


The law would not require officials to explain the reason for designating a group, nor does it require the Treasury Department to provide evidence.
 


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