Transformers: Age of the Primes toyline discussion 10/27 Update: First look at Megatronus the Fallen

[CoffeeHorse]

There's another trivially easy fix. Prime hasn't retrieved his blaster yet. Megatron and Optimus are both reaching for weapons. Hot Rod still gets to have his screwup so he can have his subsequent growth, but it cuts the screwup in half. He gives Megatron an opportunity without screwing up Prime's opportunity.

 

[Superomegaprime]

Just thinking about this so called hate that Rodimus gets, made me serach out apicture creator using the One piece bounty posters, so I created this, for a laugh:

And just so that the cons don't feel left out:

 

[LordGigaIce]

To your point, the writing does him no favors there anyway -- I wouldn't have him screw up THAT badly, and I also wouldn't forget to actually HAVE him redeem himself (rather than just... magically get a convenient glow up and yeet the bad guy into space because we ran out of time).

I take the point of Optimus' spirit going "ARISE.... RODIMUS PRIME" as Optimus basically saying "I don't blame you for my death."

I think Rodimus' main issues are twofold. The first is that season three does him no favours. There's the concept of a plan of a character arc but he never really goes on it in any narratively satisfying way. Most people remember him moping about not being as good as Optimus, and that's the perception. It's not entirely fair, but I can hardly blame people with that outlook. That's most of season three. And frankly? A lot of defence of season three is based on "well the idea is sound" or "there could have been something if X, Y, and Z didn't happen." Which are fair points in the abstract, but when talking about how the character is remembered... they really don't work? Yeah, we can talk about how there's potential for Rodimus' story through season three, but it didn't materialize for one reason or another. I'm not gonna lecture my pal who vaguely remembers Transformers fondly that he didn't construct a mind palace-esque plan for how Rodimus could have been well written.
The other issue that the backlash to Optimus dying was so severe that they had to plan on bringing him back while season three was in production, which meant that any and all growth Rodimus did get was undone by the Real Hero coming back in the end to save the day. And again... I can hardly blame Hasbro. They killed Optimus off not knowing how attached the audience had grown to him. The end result, though, is that even for people who didn't stick with the fandom Rodimus comes off as an experiment that didn't work so they changed course.

I have to confess I'm not sure why you were and are being so apologetic about it to begin with. It's not really a debate; you not-inaccurately summed up a few fandom-side sentiments, and shared one observation from outside our bubble. Even Phazer's response echoes some of your within-fandom observations (that there are parts of the mythos that fans picked up on that give Rodimus more of an appeal). I even noted that there are other similar non-fan takes that are interesting and revealing in that way. The other responses don't seem to be defending a sacred cow (and tbh it's kind of funny to hear HOT ROD called that, like how did that happen) or shouting down the outside perspective, so much as echoing other perspectives that are also part of the conversation.

I mean, I'm rarely ever passing up a chance to talk about my boy anyway, but I'm not seeing any side really causing any problems here.

Thank you.
I guess my perspective is this. Rodimus engenders strong feelings. For some people he's irredeemably hated for "causing" Optimus' death and for others he's a totem to be protected at all costs because any negative feelings is indicative of a mindset that can't let the 80s go.
On top of all of that I think everyone in this fandom can relate to some character being "their guy" or "their gal." Some character, maybe a headliner, maybe someone who got a background appearance once.... who we just like and go all in on. And I don't want people who feel that way about Hot Rod/Rodimus to think I'm coming after them or a character they like.

I just found it interesting that the anecdotal evidence I heard didn't fall along the lines of the usual discourse we see in the fandom. Which makes sense, the people giving me these opinions weren't fans. They didn't get into flamewars for years that shaped their opinions. They just saw an animated movie as a kid and have some thoughts on it. And if nothing else I think it's good to get out of the bubble now and then.

But yeah... having people respond to my story about non-fans sharing non-fan thoughts with stories about how as fans THIS and as fans THAT and YOU DIDN'T TAKE MY SEGMENT OF THE FANDOM INTO ACCOUNT and it's like... geeze. The point here was an outside of the fandom perspective. Everyone here, myself included, has had our thoughts on this shaped by years of online discussion. Responding with more of that to a story about what non-fans thought is... I don't know. But it seems like a defensive mechanism. And if that's how people are gonna be... I'll just apologize for raising the issue.

EDIT- The idea of the Prime lineage has always had my fascination, so while I don't love Rodimus as a character, I hardly hate him either. I'd personally love to see more stories depict him as a Prime, seeing how that title and the lineage associated with it informs his character, and so on. "Rodimus as the leader of the Autobots" is untapped potential, and I think there's a lot to explore, that Hasbro just never gets around to for various reasons that have been gone over.
But I do like Rodimus well enough and want to see him get his due as a Prime.

 

[lastmaximal]

I'm... Not seeing any response be so vitriolic, unless it's someone on ignore or whatever. I think you and these viewpoints are okay here. Getting a bit defensive (in a deferential sense?), if that? But no big.

Man I love discussing things on The Allspark.

 

[Sabrblade]

One idea I've long toyed with about a contemporary Hot Rod character is that he can be the Nightwing to Bumblebee's Robin (Tim Drake). Looked up to, like Energon Hot Shot was looked up to by Energon Ironhide; he could be the cooler big brother who comes home from college every now and then.

I really liked how Cyberverse handled Hot Rod in its third season. That felt like one of the best modern takes on the character in a long time. While he still didn't go down the Rodimus route, he was allowed to take charge and grow into a leadership role all unto his own, earning respect and authority by the merits of his actions and the strength of his character. It was the closest to Transformers cartoon has ever come to showing us a good and proper what-could-have-been for G1 Rodimus Prime.

 

[Fenix Twilight]

I've never had a problem with Hot Rod always thought he was cool infact (that goes for Rodimus too), but then I saw the movie years after watching season 3 so I already knew what happened by osmosis, but my main takeaway from this discussion is if Hasbro must do The Arisen it should be Hot Rod not Optimus in the role, from his introduction the matrix shined when he held it, he physically changed once he was worthy and the previous holder renamed him, it's just a shame he'll never get the recognition cause people have a 35 year old grudge for a cartoon character.

 

[lastmaximal]

I'd be perfectly happy if we never did the "Arisen" bit ever, except as a "one of many diverse religious beliefs" thing. I'd actually like for some worldbuilding to muddle that, so that the Thirteen (or the Guiding Hand) isn't such a central mythology.

Give me a bunch of them and leave them all ambiguous, make some entirely fictional and a grift (ahem), make some coincidentally supported by something real but not in the intended way, make some Arthrurian embellishments, and so on.

 

[Sabrblade]

Frankly, I would have much rather preferred that the Last Autobot had been allowed to be the Thirteenth, since he was supposed to have been the final of Primus's original direct creations.

 

[lastmaximal]

The Arisen should be Thirteen, written like a temperamental thirteen-year-old human.

 

[LordGigaIce]

I'd be perfectly happy if we never did the "Arisen" bit ever, except as a "one of many diverse religious beliefs" thing. I'd actually like for some worldbuilding to muddle that, so that the Thirteen (or the Guiding Hand) isn't such a central mythology.

Give me a bunch of them and leave them all ambiguous, make some entirely fictional and a grift (ahem), make some coincidentally supported by something real but not in the intended way, make some Arthrurian embellishments, and so on.

I'm quite fine with TFO's take of just making Zeta Prime the Thirteenth Prime. The name "Zeta Prime" is cool, and he's got just enough lore elsewhere where fans recognize the name, but nothing consistently established. Make being the Thirteenth Prime Zeta's "thing" and leave the Arisen nonsense behind because it was such a bad idea that almost every piece of fiction after its introduction tried to mitigate it anyway.

I'm... Not seeing any response be so vitriolic, unless it's someone on ignore or whatever

It's less vitriolic and more... missing the point I guess. Like... no. I didn't take the UK fandom's intersection with the North American fandom into account but it's also not strictly relevant. Like... the whole point is "initial discussion about Rodimus was fuelled by people who hated him for his role in the '86 movie, and then more fans joined the discussion that pushed things in the opposite direction."
That's pretty much the crux of that part of my point. No, I didn't mention the UK fandom specifically. No, that doesn't change what I was trying to say, but it's the internet to nitpickiness is gonna be there I suppose.
Beyond that, I also wasn't trying to question anyone's fandom of Rodimus. I get he has fans. I kind of like him myself. I get that. I wasn't saying liking Rodimus was wrong or that anyone's experiences with the fandom that led them to liking him were invalid. In fact I was so preemptively apologetic to avoid those responses. Yet me merely going "hey some guys I know who remember the '86 movie think Rodimus wasn't great for reasons the fandom doesn't really go into much" got people responding with "well here's my story and why I love Rodimus."

Cool. I mean that, legitimately. Cool. I'm not trying to say those takes are invalid or those experiences are in any way lesser. And it strikes me as hyper defensive that they even came up. But ok I guess.
I was just trying to explore some notions of the character outside of the usual talking points we as fans tend to go over,

 

[LordGigaIce]

anywho

Leaks of what is supposedly a prototype for AotP Prima.

The front of the robot mode shares some design elements with his Aligned/Covenant of Primus design...

 

[lastmaximal]

I see they got a head start on the yellowing.

Or a headLESS start.

 

[lastmaximal]

There's another trivially easy fix. Prime hasn't retrieved his blaster yet. Megatron and Optimus are both reaching for weapons. Hot Rod still gets to have his screwup so he can have his subsequent growth, but it cuts the screwup in half. He gives Megatron an opportunity without screwing up Prime's opportunity.

Or, and hear me out.

There's a newly-revealed Soundwave minion named Bananapeel...

 

[Sabrblade]

Or, and hear me out.

There's a newly-revealed Soundwave minion named Bananapeel...

Ah, so he's the one who caused Hot Rod to trip in my version.

 

[Dekafox]

I'd be perfectly happy if we never did the "Arisen" bit ever, except as a "one of many diverse religious beliefs" thing. I'd actually like for some worldbuilding to muddle that, so that the Thirteen (or the Guiding Hand) isn't such a central mythology.

Give me a bunch of them and leave them all ambiguous, make some entirely fictional and a grift (ahem), make some coincidentally supported by something real but not in the intended way, make some Arthrurian embellishments, and so on.

So basically the Arisen as the Cybertronian Nerevarine?

 

[Sabrblade]

In all seriousness, "the Arisen" wasn't actually something Covenant book did; rather, the book made Optimus the literal reincarnation of the Thirteenth Prime, heavily implied to have originally been named "Optimus Prime" all along.

"The Arisen" was instead a concept invented by IDW, a figure of myth and legend only said to be the Thirteenth Prime but without ever outright confirming it, in an attempt to smooth over what the Covenant book had actually done with the Thirteenth Prime so that IDW could use the Covenant Thirteen without having to also make IDW1 Optimus the literal the Thirteenth Prime, as that's not at all how IDW was writing him at the time. And it was later revealed that most of Cybertron's mythology surrounding the Thirteen was all baloney concocted by Shockwave anyway, and the series ended with Arcee saying that the Arisen's identity did not actually matter when compared to the inspiration and hope that his legacy left behind.

 

[LordGigaIce]

In all seriousness, "the Arisen" wasn't actually something Covenant book did; rather, the book made Optimus the literal reincarnation of the Thirteenth Prime, heavily implied to have originally been named "Optimus Prime" all along.

"The Arisen" was instead a concept invented by IDW, a figure of myth and legend only said to be the Thirteenth Prime but without ever outright confirming it, in an attempt to smooth over what the Covenant book had actually done with the Thirteenth Prime so that IDW could use the Covenant Thirteen without having to also make IDW1 Optimus the literal the Thirteenth Prime, as that's not at all how IDW was writing him at the time. And it was later revealed that most of Cybertron's mythology surrounding the Thirteen was all baloney concocted by Shockwave anyway, and the series ended with Arcee saying that the Arisen's identity did not actually matter when compared to the inspiration and hope that his legacy left behind.

Right. The Covenant said "Optimus is the Thirteenth Prime" and as soon as IDW was forced to work with the concept they mitigated it with "the Arisen" to try and not just say Optimus was one of them.
IDW2 invented the idea that whoever held the Matrix was the Thirteenth Prime, so it "became" Optimus once Orion got the Matrix and was risen to a Prime. TFO just outright abandoned the idea of Optimus having any connection to the Thirteenth Prime by making it someone else entirely.

So it seems like it's a really bad story idea if most fictions that use the Thirteen just try to get around that "Optimus is the Thirteeth" detail. Like... take the hint. It's bad, and people are actively looking for ways around it. Just abandon the concept.

 

[Sabrblade]

New idea: The Last Autobot = the Marvel G1 comics version of Zeta Prime

("Autonomous Maximus" be darned)

 

[lastmaximal]

In all seriousness, "the Arisen" wasn't actually something Covenant book did; rather, the book made Optimus the literal reincarnation of the Thirteenth Prime, heavily implied to have originally been named "Optimus Prime" all along.

"The Arisen" was instead a concept invented by IDW, a figure of myth and legend only said to be the Thirteenth Prime but without ever outright confirming it, in an attempt to smooth over what the Covenant book had actually done with the Thirteenth Prime so that IDW could use the Covenant Thirteen without having to also make IDW1 Optimus the literal the Thirteenth Prime, as that's not at all how IDW was writing him at the time. And it was later revealed that most of Cybertron's mythology surrounding the Thirteen was all baloney concocted by Shockwave anyway, and the series ended with Arcee saying that the Arisen's identity did not actually matter when compared to the inspiration and hope that his legacy left behind.

That's absolutely right. It's a useful distinction that really reflects in the execution within each. I will pass on both of them.

New idea: The Last Autobot = the Marvel G1 comics version of Zeta Prime

("Autonomous Maximus" be darned)

Or Zed Prime, as the last letter of... one alphabet.

Except instead of Alpha Prime, which doesn't seem to really be a thing outside that one Dreamwave mention, the first is Prima. Or... Primα!

(checks wiki, which notes that "Alpha Prime" is connected to PrimON)
well, crap

 

[Shadewing]

Right. The Covenant said "Optimus is the Thirteenth Prime" and as soon as IDW was forced to work with the concept they mitigated it with "the Arisen" to try and not just say Optimus was one of them.
IDW2 invented the idea that whoever held the Matrix was the Thirteenth Prime, so it "became" Optimus once Orion got the Matrix and was risen to a Prime. TFO just outright abandoned the idea of Optimus having any connection to the Thirteenth Prime by making it someone else entirely.

So it seems like it's a really bad story idea if most fictions that use the Thirteen just try to get around that "Optimus is the Thirteeth" detail. Like... take the hint. It's bad, and people are actively looking for ways around it. Just abandon the concept.

I'm running my own continuity with the Renegade table top game. In my backstory, the majority don't know where Optimus came from. He just kinda showed up one day after one of Megatron's attacks. This had lead to a lot of rumors about his origins, with some conspiracy relgious nuts claiming he's a reincarnation of one of the original 13, but they're largely dismissed as nutjobs.