Transformers: Age of the Primes toyline discussion 10/27 Update: First look at Megatronus the Fallen

[Exatron]

The Rodimus hate extended all the way as late as 2009, as seen in how he's portrayed in this video from back then:

As late as 2009? Have we already forgotten? I mean, I can't say I'd blame anyone who really wants to block it out, but I think it's one of those things that must never be forgotten, lest we allow history to repeat itself. Already way too much of that happening.

 

[CoffeeHorse]

I'd like to forget. It is really embarrassing that anyone at IDW thought that Deviations issue needed to happen.

 

[lastmaximal]

I, a longtime Hot Rod/imus fanboy, have taken too long to respond to this because of... (Wild Gesticulation) EVERYTHING.

But here goes.

I largely concur with LordGigaIce's observations. I've long been sick of the anti-Hot Rod pushback, which tends to be loudest and dumbest from people who never grew up beyond their 80s childhoods (there are some for whom the most cited part of an old toku show is when one of the heroines would show her undies in a high kick). Like, whether Hot Rod is even directly mentioned or not, the One Joke kicks in. This has endured through the decades, because again, these people peaked a long damn time ago and are forever trying toretend it's still a plateau and not a puddle.

But, y'know. What do you expect.

I do remember a lot more sympathy and more complex reading of Hot Rod and the Rodimus era coming in the quieter post G1 years, when more reflections and metadiecourse on the shows and characters were the norm. This has since been reflected in more recent writing, with Furman continuing to flesh out Hot Rod and Roberts leaning into the character's flash (almost like the Lego Batman movie basically weaponized all the Batman memes).

But I have also encountered... Not quite the Poochie situation, certainly not that metaphor. But just... Apathy, and a tendency to assume by default that Rodimus Prime must've sucked, from non-fans. (Most recently when OSW Review compared Dale Torborg's WCW ring gear to Rodimus Prime, whom they did not recognize and just guessed as "a jive Optimus Prime?") I've never encountered the "he was a boardroom creation made to appeal to kids" angle, which seems like a more contemporarily-cynical approach of reading-into something.

But I have encountered assumptions that he MUST have sucked, because, well, he was such a momentary experiment that was yanked offstage incredibly quickly and never substantially foregrounded again for the next 30 years. Rather than Poochie, he's Azbats, Daredevil's armored costume, Electric Red/Blue Superman, and assorted other "they tried this and it flopped" gimmicks. Which... Is not entirely inaccurate.

This much I can understand, and I can't begrudge-- he HAS been treated like this in the franchise's history. Especially in the west, where it's not so much a succession of Autobot/Cybertron leaders as Japan had; it's just been "Optimus died, Rodimus showed up, then they got rid of him and put Optimus back and then never changed that again, so he must have sucked. I [a younger non-fan] have never even heard of him." And there's little that would shake that; I mean, even aesthetically the dude is very much Of His Era rather than something with timeless appeal. And even now that teal and pink are currently cool again and the 80s/90s nostalgia aesthetic is still a bit en vogue, a bright magenta car covered in loud flames and ostentatious chrome outgrowths is a hard sell. And the character is far from G1 Optimus' Big Good Robot Dad, instead being Co-Regional Manager Jim Halpert at best without the loving family and with 120% more moping.

So while I'll always dismiss "wah he killed Optimus" whinging, I actually bedgrudgingly get non-fan out-of-context apathy.

But he's still my guy.

It's weird, really. I WAS one if those traumatized by all the death (ffs, Prowl's burning-from-the-inside) and the loss if Optimus Prime especially. But the narrative... worked for me, as I was at just the right age to identify directly with characters designed for me to identify with. I rooted for him, wanted to see him prove himself, wanted him to make up for getting Prime killed. And that design, boy, you had to be there, and I was there. I was there for it and always will be.

Growing older I only related to the character more. It's a good character arc really, going from ambitious kid with more dreams than plans, to suddenly being thrust onto a higher level, to struggling with being enough because you're not the everything to everyone your parents and other mentors were, you're just you doing your best. Your pals are Han Solo and his girlfriend and a goofy fast-talker and a dude who watches way too much TV and the old guy and a mentor who tolerates but doesn't get you, and you just want to be done with work and don't want to ruin things for those who count on you.

His tenure as Prime I mostly saw in bits from the cartoon, but I liked what little comic stuff I came across later. Here was a complex leader who believably chafed at the more politically and procedurally demanding schtick of his era, all while carrying the insecurity that came with the circumstances of HOW he became leader. But just as this was being steered and navigated, well, never mind that, we can bring Optimus back now.

I'm glad to have seen more of him in recent years, reinterpreted as an ancient exile leader in Energon (idk what the dub did with THAT later on), showing a momentary flash of coolness and leadership in Animated, being a key weirdo fixture in IDW (not wild about Roberts' concept sometimes, but I love the flashes of depth and complexity he gets, and I will ALWAYS love that this too-cool-for-school himbo dbag asked for a group hug so he could thank his squad for traveling with him) and palling around with fellow kid appeal bois in Cyberverse.

I hope there's always a place for him somehow, even as his turbo-revving ways have been repurposed for Young Optimus and/or Bumblebee.

 

[Sabrblade]

I'd like to forget. It is really embarrassing that anyone at IDW thought that Deviations issue needed to happen.

Yeah, there were a million other ways to do that concept of "What if Optimus survived TFTM?" without needlessly bashing Hot Rod at the same time.

It would have been far more creative for Deviations (or, hey, even for TFTM itself!) to have simply had Optimus retire from Autobot leadership once Hot Rod was revealed to be the true chosen bearer of the Matrix, and become Rodimus's second-in-command and chief advisor.

The Diaclone toy that would become Ultra Magnus could have even instead been sold as an upgraded armored version of Optimus, representing the form he took on after stepping down to become Rodimus's sub-commander (maybe named "Optimus Magnus" since Rodimus would be the new Prime). While this would have removed the new character of Ultra Magnus from the equation, the new toy would have still been sold (preferably in its original, more-Optimus-like Diaclone colors) in stores at the time. It also would have paralleled Megatron getting a new upgraded toy of his own as Galvatron (and kinda Hot Rod upgrading to Rodimus).

Like, start the movie as normal, up until the attack on Autobot City, where instead of Ultra Magnus it is now either Springer or Blaster who is in charge and gives the other Autobots the orders that Magnus gives in the movie proper. Then, when Optimus arrives, after saying his "No matter the cost," line, he would turn to the others exiting the shuttle and ask if his new armor is ready to go. They would give it to him as a new trailer, and he would say, "Then let's transform..." (transforming to truck mode, his new trailer would attach to him) "... and roll out!" Cue the Stan Bush song.

Optimus drives through the city, guns blazing from the missile pods on his new trailer, blasting Decepticons left and right as he transforms, leaps into the air, and continues to blast his way to Megatron. The two leaders then have their iconic fight, but with Optimus revealing to Megatron his brand-new battle armor, showing Megatron that he means business this time. When Hot Rod interferes, however, he does not grapple with Megatron, but instead trips and winds up landing between the two, inadvertently taking Megatron's gunshot meant for Optimus. Megatron laughs maniacally at this unexpected direct hit of his. Enraged at Megatron shooting Hot Rod in the chest, Optimus pummels Megatron like he did in the movie, sending the Decepticons into retreat. However, Optimus still took some heavy damage, and he collapses as he tries to reach for the fallen Hot Rod.

Instead of a death scene for Optimus, we get a scene of both him and Hot Rod on repair beds, both being worked on by Perceptor. Optimus tells Hot Rod that what he did was very brave, with Optimus owing Hot Rod his life (so instead "Hot Rod killed Optimus!", it would be "Hot Rod saved Optimus"), but also very foolish. Hot Rod would say something like "I guess I have my own way of doing things." As Optimus moves a little closer to Hot Rod, a light would begin to glow through a blast hole in Optimus's chest, to which Hot Rod inquires about. Optimus opens his chest and shows him the Matrix, telling him about the prophecy of one destined to use it to light their darkest hour. Optimus momentarily stirs from the pain of his injuries, and accidentally drops the Matrix. Hot Rod reaches for it and catches it, having his glowing moment that foreshadows what is to come later, and gives it back to Optimus, who places it back inside his chest.

When the Decepticons later attacked Autobot City again, Optimus and Hot Rod are back to working order, and Optimus basically takes the role of Ultra Magnus from here on out, with Hot Rod, Kup, and the Dinobots going in one shuttle while Optimus goes with the other Autobots in the other. Later, when Springer goes "Kup and Hot Rod just bought it!", Magnus's original line of "I can't deal with that now!" would be for Optimus just a mournful "NO!" By the time of the battle on Junkion where Magnus tried and failed to open the Matrix, it would be Optimus in his new armor who tries and fails to open it. As Galvatron corners Optimus, he would hearken back their previous battle by saying, "That armor won't save you this time, Prime." And just before getting blasted to pieces like Magnus did, Optimus would speak some final words to Galvatron, something like "You may finish me here today, Galvatron, but there is only one who can use the Matrix!" hinting that he knows (or at least suspects) "something".

With Optimus getting destroyed at this point, we still get an Optimus death, but halfway through the movie instead of toward the beginning. And since it's Optimus rather than new-character Ultra Magnus, the sense of hopelessness is kicked up further when Springer and the others find his remains. But, also just like Magnus, the Junkions would rebuild him, giving his body a new coat of blue and black paint; this would be how he gets the color scheme of the Diaclone Powered Convoy cab. The rest of the movie then plays out with Optimus in the role of Ultra Magnus.

During Hot Rod's confrontation with Galvatron, instead of the "First Prime, then Ultra Magnus, and now you!" line, Galvatron would belittle Hot Rod, saying something like, "Optimus couldn't keep the Matrix from me, what makes you think you can?!" to which Hot rod would retort, "I do things my own way!" calling back to what he said to Optimus back in the repair bed scene. And after Hot Rod reveals himself to the others as Rodimus Prime, right after Kup says "I knew you had potential, lad," Optimus would say something like "So did I, Kup. So did I."

Also, when Rodimus announces "Autobots, transform and roll out!", that line would now be a callback to when Optimus said it at the beginning of the movie. Has anyone ever noticed that Optimus never says that most famous line of his at all in the entire movie? Only Rodimus ever says. Here, with Optimus saying it first at the beginning and Rodimus now echoing it at the end, it becomes more parallel.

The movie would end the same, with Rodimus giving his speech, and Optimus now standing beside and slightly behind him, showing his full endorsement of the new Autobot leader. As for Robert Stack, either he would simply be absent from the film, or he could play Springer, with Neil Ross still voicing him in Season 3 and 4 (Springer and Magnus's voices always sounded similar to me in the movie). And all the while, Peter Cullen gets to keep his paycheck into Season 3.

 

[Shadewing]

I had a similar idea the other day, but instead the movie would largely play out the same, with the same Name idea idea except that Prime's injuries don;t kill him, but are still gravely serious, and that need to get back to Cybertron/The Moonbases asap to get him proper medical attention. This still largely removes Prime for the movie for Hot Rod to shine, would slightly change their reason for leaving Earth. Optimus passes on the Metrix to someone, just in cases he doesn't make it. The armor would be revealed and basically be new life support armor created to help him heal. I would probably keep the idea of Vehicle to Armored Robot in the cartoon, with him having to stay in it until he's fully healed. Then if we still got PM Prime, that could be him after he's been fully healed.

 

[Sabrblade]

The armor would be revealed and basically be new life support armor created to help him heal.

I actually did consider going for the "life support suit" route for the armor, having Optimus get it after his fight with Megatron and needing it to continuing functioning in fighting order. But I figured that 1980s Hasbro would instead want it to be depicted something thing cool and heroic and butt-kicking that would get little boys to want to buy it and play with it to the fullest extent, and a medical suit doesn't sound like something 1980s Hasbro would have preferred over combat armor. And I didn't want some hypothetical 1980s kids to think "Optimus needs this suit now because they made him weaker!"

I also wanted to let the inner cab robot have some time in the spotlight, having him only don his armor for combat situations (not unlike how later Super-Mode Optimus Primes would don their Super Modes specifically for special climactic moments in fights instead of right away). When he's interacting with the other Autobots, he'd be in his cab robot form. I also made sure the armor was also shown to be backwards-compatible with the original red cab Optimus Prime toy, having Optimus stay red for the first have of the movie, then getting painted blue by the Junkions when they rebuild him later on, then staying blue for the rest of the movie to better advertise the complete package of the new toy.

 

[CoffeeHorse]

My Deviations issue would be authentic 'nobody told Marketing what the movie is about' silliness played totally straight. Megatron and Galvatron are two different bots, with no time travel explanation. Hot Rod and Rodimus Prime are two different bots. The Battle of Autobot City is entirely replaced by Digital Doom on the Highway to Destruction. Things like that.

 

[Destron D-69]

I might try to do "what if...? Wardawn happened but instead of the Aerialbots learning how to be good Autobots, they took their shot at becoming the greatest decepticon heroes of all time and killed Alpha Trion before he could fix Pax."

and then setting up for what this change would do for the timeline if I got to continue it in more parts. like "what if Silverbolt told Megatron to go to earth and take it's energy millions of years earlier? and they ran into some time lost Predacons where Silverbolt is part of Tripredicus instead of Magnaboss ... ooohhh?

lol <_< wow what a weird tangent to go on there.

 

[Shadewing]

I actually did consider going for the "life support suit" route for the armor, having Optimus get it after his fight with Megatron and needing it to continuing functioning in fighting order. But I figured that 1980s Hasbro would instead want it to be depicted something thing cool and heroic and butt-kicking that would get little boys to want to buy it and play with it to the fullest extent, and a medical suit doesn't sound like something 1980s Hasbro would have preferred over combat armor. And I didn't want some hypothetical 1980s kids to think "Optimus needs this suit now because they made him weaker!"

I also wanted to let the inner cab robot have some time in the spotlight, having him only don his armor for combat situations (not unlike how later Super-Mode Optimus Primes would don their Super Modes specifically for special climactic moments in fights instead of right away). When he's interacting with the other Autobots, he'd be in his cab robot form. I also made sure the armor was also shown to be backwards-compatible with the original red cab Optimus Prime toy, having Optimus stay red for the first have of the movie, then getting painted blue by the Junkions when they rebuild him later on, then staying blue for the rest of the movie to better advertise the complete package of the new toy.

See, the way I see it is that him getting the armor is when he gets a big kick ass action scene, showing that he's still entirely capable. In a way, think of it kinda like Goku or someone. They got knocked out in the first act, spend the second act out the fight completely, then come back stronger then ever. Yes, the armor is helping keep him alive, but it doesn't diminish his abilities, might even enhance them. You get Rodimus vs Galvatron, but Optimus gets a fight like him vs Cyclonus and/or Scourge and the sweeps. You still need Rodimus to look like a big damn hero, but Optimus shows off as well. If Optimus is just now more powerful, but steps down for "no" reason, that diminishes any attempt to make people care about Rodimus. The whole "step down becuase he;s the chosen one" just reads even more into the poochie idea, imo. You take Optimus off the table to allow the other characters to grow and struggle, and Hot Rod to win big in the third act, but still have Optimus' return be big deal as well. He steps down for legit issues, but shows off in the end that he's still powerful. Rodimus gets a mentor, Optimus is still is big presence, both can hold their own against the new more powerful Decepticons.

 

[Sabrblade]

I also didn't want to put Optimus getting his new armor too close to when any of the other character upgrades happen. In my version, we see Optimus get his armor near the middle of the first act, Megatron become Galvatron at the start of the second act, Optimus then get his blue cab colors at the end of the second act, and Hot Rod become Rodimus near the end of the final act.

Giving Optimus his armor right after the Autobot City battle I feel, comes too close to when Megatron becomes Galvatron, creating a case of consecutive upgrades happening back-to-back.

Plus, I forgot to mention that Optimus already having his armor at the start would show us a demonstrative example of what kind of equipment the Autobots were manufacturing in those assembly lines seen earlier on Moonbase One. We see stuff being built there in the actual movie and none of it ever comes back into the story thanks to Unicron eating the moon. In this version, we'd get to see at least one piece of that equipment in action before the big OM NOM NOM occurs.

 

[The Phazer]

This might upset some people. I'm sorry if that happens. I don't want to take anyone to task over their fandom or who or what they like. I've just been thinking about this and some anecdotal evidence came my way.

This fandom is kind of weird when it comes to Hot Rod/Rodimus.
The early online discourse was shaped by those who saw the '86 movie as kids, and who carried their disappointment/sadness/anger over Optimus' death with them. Early online discourse was all about how Rodimus sucked, how he killed Optimus, wasn't as good as Optimus, etc...

Eventually a younger crop of fans, not necessarily influenced by the gut reaction of seeing a beloved character killed before they were even ten, came up and became more active in the fandom. These fans pushed back against the older group, with the notions that Hot Rod/Rodimus being "bad" or in any way responsible for Optimus' death being thrown at those deemed "Geewuners," people who were so emotionally invested in G1-specifically '84-'85 G1- that they couldn't move on.

I feel like this is a bit of an oversimplification - there was also the intersection of the UK fandom with the US one for the first time back then, which is way, way, way more comic focused than the US one (and the UK theatrical release also noted that Optimus wasn't permanently dead at the end...). UK comic Rodimus was cool, and a really interesting character.

 

[LordGigaIce]

I feel like this is a bit of an oversimplification

You know what? Sorry I brought it up. Clearly something I stated outright as being anecdotal and never presented as otherwise while taking great pains to let it be known that whatever side you fell on I wasn't trying to attack anyone clearly deserves protest responses about how clearly a story about non-fans and how they feel about things is totally countered by how fans feel. Thanks guys. Sorry I tipped over the sacred cow.

 

[CoffeeHorse]

I'm having fun though. Can we keep this going?

 

[LordGigaIce]

I'm having fun though. Can we keep this going?

Funnily enough I had an idea similar to what Shadewing and Sabrblade are discussing. My TFTM "What if?" would mostly follow the broad strokes of the movie, but without Hot Rod or Ultra Magnus.

Optimus wins the fight with Megatron, who's badly injured and jettisoned by Starscream on the way back to Cybertron, along with the other near-dead 'Cons. Unicron finds them, turns them into Galvatron, Cyclonus, Scourge, and the Sweeps.

Meanwhile Optimus is leading our main group of Autobots, and they learn on Quintessa that Cybertron itself can become a robot large enough to defeat Unicron (this drops some hints about the Quintessons' connections to the Cybertronians in the leadup to season 3).

Everyone converges on Cybertron. Decepticon control of the planet is in chaos thanks to Unicron attacking, and Optimus travels to the core of the planet to merge with Primus/the core. When the link-up happens you see a flash of white light that engulfs Optimus and Cybertron transformers into a giant planet Optimus can control. He beats Unicron, destroying him and leaving nothing but the head.

The strain is all too much for Optimus though, and as soon as Unicron is defeated Cybertron returns to its planet form. The other Autobots (Springer, Arcee, Kup, Wheelie, Perceptor, Blaster, Jazz, Cliffjumper, Bumblebee, Spike, Daniel) all meet him at the chamber containing the planet's core. An all white Optimus (purified from Primus'/the core's power) stumbles out and collapses. Perceptor says that the strain of controlling Cybertron has taken too much of a toll and that Optimus will die without help. The "Magnus Armour" is introduced as a life support system for Optimus to wear, and he wears it while declaring an end to the Great War on Autobot controlled Cybertron.

Basically it's an attempt to rewrite the movie in a way where Optimus doesn't die (the prompt) while still keeping a lot of the same general factors in mind.
Hasbro needs to introduce new characters and product, so a lot of the cast needs to be killed off. Optimus surviving hopefully means kids can bare it. Optimus, meanwhile, gets an all new toy too, so you're still introducing new product even if you keep him alive. All the Decepticon changes happen as well, meaning you get those new toys advertised.

The big change here is no Hot Rod and no Ultra Magnus. Magnus' design is the new post-movie design for Optimus. This gives kids a reason why there's a white Optimus Prime inside the armour. It also means, in this alt time line, that the character of Ultra Magnus never exists. It also introduces a whole new body and design for Optimus, so fast forward to the 2020s and you've probably got fans who prefer the 84-85 Optimus look and those that like the movie-onward look.

Hot Rod doesn't have to be written out entirely, now that I lay this out. You could probably still introduce him as the new kid appeal character, given that Bumblebee will probably be de-emphasized going forward. And hell, maybe his totally radical hip stylings land better now that he doesn't have to replace Optimus and get all the baggage that comes with that.

 

[lastmaximal]

You know what? Sorry I brought it up. Clearly something I stated outright as being anecdotal and never presented as otherwise while taking great pains to let it be known that whatever side you fell on I wasn't trying to attack anyone clearly deserves protest responses about how clearly a story about non-fans and how they feel about things is totally countered by how fans feel. Thanks guys. Sorry I tipped over the sacred cow.

I have to confess I'm not sure why you were and are being so apologetic about it to begin with. It's not really a debate; you not-inaccurately summed up a few fandom-side sentiments, and shared one observation from outside our bubble. Even Phazer's response echoes some of your within-fandom observations (that there are parts of the mythos that fans picked up on that give Rodimus more of an appeal). I even noted that there are other similar non-fan takes that are interesting and revealing in that way. The other responses don't seem to be defending a sacred cow (and tbh it's kind of funny to hear HOT ROD called that, like how did that happen) or shouting down the outside perspective, so much as echoing other perspectives that are also part of the conversation.

I mean, I'm rarely ever passing up a chance to talk about my boy anyway, but I'm not seeing any side really causing any problems here.

 

[lastmaximal]

My Deviations issue would be authentic 'nobody told Marketing what the movie is about' silliness played totally straight. Megatron and Galvatron are two different bots, with no time travel explanation. Hot Rod and Rodimus Prime are two different bots. The Battle of Autobot City is entirely replaced by Digital Doom on the Highway to Destruction. Things like that.

Idk about Digital Doom, but this sounds right up my alley. I'll gladly pass on anything that smacks of Deviations' disastrous "my four year old self's revenge! And also Hot Rod stinks" fix fic to instead explore more Toxitron Collection level preproduction concept wackiness. There's so much nebulous weirdness (admittedly I've not really spent the time to look it up) in things like the tech spec bios (where we now have City Commanders, which conjures up a funny image of Mayor Galvatron) and a bunch of the Japanese artwork.

Forget un-killing Optimus Prime and crapping on Hot Rod. Give me Ultra Magnus hitting an enzuigiri on Galvatron while both are atop Metroplex's shoulder and Megatron is flying around elsewhere in the shot. (I typed this last bit only half remembering the piece from one of the art books, foggy on whether or not Megatron was actually part of it. Imagine my glee when I Googled it and saw that it was exactly that.)

 

[Undead Scottsman]

The problem with Hot Rod in the film is that the movie isn't that well written, so instead of, you know, SHOOTING MEGATRON with those arm blasters he has, he had to interfer in a way that gets Prime killed.

Like, what if Megatron shot Prime BEFORE Hot Rod got there and it was Hot Rod's intervention that gave Prime the opportunity for his final blow? Not only would it no longer be Hot Rod's fault, but he would actually have made a positive difference in the fight and that's a good first step towards him becoming the leader.

Instead we got "Optimus, Forgive Me."
Not a great way to start, quite frankly, and it's entirely on the writers.

 

[CoffeeHorse]

The problem with doing it that way is, if Hot Rod already had as much brains as he had courage his character would have had nowhere left to go before becoming Rodimus. There is still merit to that given the movie really didn't adequately show his growth anyway, but I'd rather fix the journey than fix the starting point.

 

[lastmaximal]

I think he HAS to screw up, so he has something to carry going forward and redeem himself for.

To your point, the writing does him no favors there anyway -- I wouldn't have him screw up THAT badly, and I also wouldn't forget to actually HAVE him redeem himself (rather than just... magically get a convenient glow up and yeet the bad guy into space because we ran out of time).

I think Hot Rod taking the shot meant for Prime, or at least one shot, and Op getting distracted enough to get hit by the next one, would do a lot to improve the scene. (Just have his arm guns on empty or whatever; I'm going for as close to the original scene as I can manage for simplicity's sake.)

This shows a sense of self-sacrifice, giving the Matrix more credence in choosing him, and when he faces Galvatron he can show he learned from it by driving into him and knocking him down rather than risk a ranged weapon being low on ammo or getting shot running in.

 

[lastmaximal]

Hot Rod doesn't have to be written out entirely, now that I lay this out. You could probably still introduce him as the new kid appeal character, given that Bumblebee will probably be de-emphasized going forward. And hell, maybe his totally radical hip stylings land better now that he doesn't have to replace Optimus and get all the baggage that comes with that.

One idea I've long toyed with about a contemporary Hot Rod character is that he can be the Nightwing to Bumblebee's Robin (Tim Drake). Looked up to, like Energon Hot Shot was looked up to by Energon Ironhide; he could be the cooler big brother who comes home from college every now and then.