Transformers: Age of the Primes toyline discussion || update: Wave 1 Box Art
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I liked the way that Cyberverse suggested that the Matrix contained the essence of each of the 13. (And an Optimus Prime, who had it on him when he died.)
IMO, the matrix is best as shared artifact among the 13, essentially bigger than any of them. Prima is the first to wield it, sure, but each of the 13 had their wisdom imparted into it. Basically it's 13's way of helping to guide future generations long after they're gone.
IMO, the matrix is best as shared artifact among the 13, essentially bigger than any of them. Prima is the first to wield it, sure, but each of the 13 had their wisdom imparted into it. Basically it's 13's way of helping to guide future generations long after they're gone.
I mean that’s what it was before it was retconned into being a chunk of Primus. I do like the idea though. Having some of the less goody-leaning Primes in there also opens it up for Decepticons to have it as well.
So….
I’ve been doing my usual “head cannon” (such as we can knowing only a “piece” of the overall arc the team might have planned) to continue building off the “ongoing narrative” Hasbro kind of started with Siege.
In my cannon, an assembly of Primes (from the toys: G1 toon and toy, Animated, Leo, Armada, Omega, Laser G2, Vector) finally got together to repair the multiversal calamity started by Predacon Megatron’s time shenanigans at the end of Kingdom. The result was the restoration of a core universe, fusing elements from all the others that had started to intermingle.
A side effect of this unified Cyberworld is that the Well of Allsparks was overloaded, the resultant burst of energy from its own “self correction” resulted in the revival of the Primes (among others thought lost or destroyed). Now the ancient Primes find themselves facing their own legacy, and must decide whether to step aside and let the new generations find their own way…or step in and try and take The Transformers into a new direction.
To me, the Thirteenth is the “Prime of Hope” Or ”Prime of the Future”. Or the “Last of the Primes” (Ancient translations can be tricky, y’know
)Not a “true” first gen Transformer like the other 12, the final spot was established to grant subsequent generations representation from the their successors. And ensure that the knowledge of the Primes would continue on to future generations. As such, potentially, ANYONE could become a Prime if so deemed ”worthy”. While not without faults (see Sentinel Prime’s era of false hopes), the IDEA was to have a capable guardian for all Cybertron, even if the Primes themselves were no more.
Optimus Prime was the last to be granted that status by Alpha Trion, and now with the other Primes revived, they’ve granted him more powers to make him able to stand with them. Optimus is also mentoring a young Hot Rod, who shows signs of being a Prime, if the not the 13th himself, one day.
The toys themselves create some confusion with fiction. I.e. Prima comes with a Matrix that can become the hilt of his sword. Star Convoy comes with a Matrix that Becomes his sword.
I kinda like to headcanon my way around Prime being 13, especially now, by saying that Star Convoy (as Primes ‘Ultimate Form’) is Optimus being raised to the level of the ancient Primes. Not that e always was.
It’s a stretch, but it works. Mostly.
Also, it’s interesting how the Matrix has evolved over the years. Considering that before TFTMs Matrix existed. Marvel G1 had the Matrix Flame, or the Creation Matrix, that was literally just the mystical energy necessary to bring Transformers to life.
I kinda like to headcanon my way around Prime being 13, especially now, by saying that Star Convoy (as Primes ‘Ultimate Form’) is Optimus being raised to the level of the ancient Primes. Not that e always was.
It’s a stretch, but it works. Mostly.
Also, it’s interesting how the Matrix has evolved over the years. Considering that before TFTMs Matrix existed. Marvel G1 had the Matrix Flame, or the Creation Matrix, that was literally just the mystical energy necessary to bring Transformers to life.
Gimme wrenches that attach to make propellers.
Why does there have to be only 13, though, really? Why can't Optimus, or Rodimus, be the 14th?
It feels weird (that's my nice way of saying it) to say "There are 13 Primes; these 12, and then these other 42 are all the 13th."
I don't think that's a lineage anymore, that's just recasting the role.
Incidentally, do the rest have corresponding numbers? We know Prima is 1 and Optimus & The Boyz are all 13, I guess, but do the rest have any specific numbers attached to them? Or are 2-12 all interchangeable?
BIG OP! BIG OP BIG OP BIG OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!!!
*cues Armada Red Alert for alarm backbeat*
Rung could make Matrixes for all of them.
I'll be hiding from the backlash.
I'll be hiding from the backlash.
Energon Grimlock?
IDW established that Space Fascist Nova Prime was a legit Matrix bearer so the precedent's already there for less than upstanding individuals to hold it.
This gets into a wider annoyance with the Thirteen in that they made them all Primes.
I donno. I'm Jewish. The idea of 12-13 ancient tribal leaders leading to the foundations of the culture jives well with my own cultural biases, so the notion of the Thirteen being the progenitors of the Cybertronians never really bothered me (me being a BSG fan also likely helped
) But they don't need to Primes. I liked the idea that of the Thirteen, Prima had the Matrix and it was specifically his successors who all carried the Matrix and took the title "Prime" in his honour.
You could even keep Vector Prime as a member of the Thirteen, maybe he was just Vector until Prima fell and he picked up his mantel and became Vector Prime before the Matrix passed to someone else? Sabrblade even posited the possibility of Alpha Trion doing this, retconning the previous namedrop that was "Alpha Prime" from DW into being Alpha Trion when he temporarily succeeded Prima as the Matrix's holder.
But then Hasbro went ahead and said all the Thirteen were Primes, which radically changed what the Prime title was, and its relation to the Matrix. And not, IMO, for the better.
Late 2004. Grabbed them a week or so before Thanksgiving the ONE time I saw the set.
A narrative tweak might be that they WERE all Primes..at a given point. Maybe conceptualize the Matrix as one part repository and one part “power up” as a fragment of Primus. Every set period of time, original 12 would hold a council to “elect” a new council leader (who would become the “Prime Cybertronian”), being given the Matrix (which would then absorb knowledge and experience from its bearer). The 13th Member could be a later addition, from when the population of Cybertron grew to the point where they would be granted a representative. This final addition would be the Last Prime, or Omega Prime, before the council would disintegrate and the High Council (once the Council of Primes) became more democratically driven positions. Because the OG12 were so powerful and had such powerful relics at their disposal, the Matrix was frequently granted to the representative of the ”lower” Cybertronians. Thus, it would become the “Matrix of Leadership”, and would remain a symbol of authority well pass the time of the “Prime Cybertronians”.IDW established that Space Fascist Nova Prime was a legit Matrix bearer so the precedent's already there for less than upstanding individuals to hold it.
This gets into a wider annoyance with the Thirteen in that they made them all Primes.
I donno. I'm Jewish. The idea of 12-13 ancient tribal leaders leading to the foundations of the culture jives well with my own cultural biases, so the notion of the Thirteen being the progenitors of the Cybertronians never really bothered me (me being a BSG fan also likely helped
But they don't need to Primes. I liked the idea that of the Thirteen, Prima had the Matrix and it was specifically his successors who all carried the Matrix and took the title "Prime" in his honour.
You could even keep Vector Prime as a member of the Thirteen, maybe he was just Vector until Prima fell and he picked up his mantel and became Vector Prime before the Matrix passed to someone else? Sabrblade even posited the possibility of Alpha Trion doing this, retconning the previous namedrop that was "Alpha Prime" from DW into being Alpha Trion when he temporarily succeeded Prima as the Matrix's holder.
But then Hasbro went ahead and said all the Thirteen were Primes, which radically changed what the Prime title was, and its relation to the Matrix. And not, IMO, for the better.
Perhaps the idea (once upon a time) was that, as the Cybertronian race grew and each new leader would impart their wisdom to the Matrix, they would be able to reactivate Primus. With the accumulated knowledge and experience, he would be able to lead all of Cybertron, where “All are One”. (Unified purpose with no internal strife. Whether that is for a positive goal or negative would ultimately depend on whose ideaology would be most dominant in carrying the matrix)
My take is that there is no connection between the Thirteen Primes and the Matrix-bearing Primes.
Like, the Thirteen died/vanished/faded into legend, then time passed, then Nova Prime claimed (or was granted/appointed) the title and passed it on to his successors, along with the Matrix that some believe to be an artifact of one or more of the Primes (it's actually only tangentially associated with them, and no one actually had it plugged into their chest).
(Of course, this means that "modern" characters like Alpha Trion can't be part of the Thirteen, because they're gone for good. Some characters get a pass, because Maccadam is only rumoured to be one, Liege Maximo is a liar, and the Fallen has an excuse.)
Like, the Thirteen died/vanished/faded into legend, then time passed, then Nova Prime claimed (or was granted/appointed) the title and passed it on to his successors, along with the Matrix that some believe to be an artifact of one or more of the Primes (it's actually only tangentially associated with them, and no one actually had it plugged into their chest).
(Of course, this means that "modern" characters like Alpha Trion can't be part of the Thirteen, because they're gone for good. Some characters get a pass, because Maccadam is only rumoured to be one, Liege Maximo is a liar, and the Fallen has an excuse.)
please excuse my son from Thirteen Class because he is on fire
signed, The Fallen's Mother
I am sorry, but he's going to need a doctor's note for the absence to not count against him.
His name is Hot Rodimus. His other name is Negotiator. A vital duty he performs in Iacon City.
Hehe. Anyway. I like the idea of the Matrix bearer lineage not being tied directly to the Thirteen. Maybe Other than Prima being considered the first more because, as the first, he is quite literally the first of the firstborn Transformers.
Also, as a bit of fun, I headcanon end a few Thirteen names, and Vector Calibur kinda works as a pre-Prime name for Vector Prime.
It seems that the whole reason it was decided to declare that all of the Thirteen were Primes was solely because of Vector Prime having the word in his name, despite not being a Matrix bearer.
What's even weirder is the fact that he is still called Vector Prime even in the Japanese version, as opposed to something like Vector Convoy.
And speaking of the Japanese version, turns out Vector wasn't one of the Thirteen In Galaxy Force because the concept of the Thirteen wouldn't reach Japan until after Galaxy Force was over. So what he was in that version was instead a member of a similar but different group called the "Ancients".
At the time, English-speaking fans (myself included) simply interpreted the Ancients as being the same group as the Thirteen, just under a different name. This is how and why Vector Prime's fellow Ancient, Logos Prime, was misinterpreted by the English-speaking fans as another member of the Thirteen. He had "Prime" in his name and was said to be kin of Vector Prime, and even possessed similar cosmic powers. It's no wonder why Logos was mistaken for another member of the Thirteen. But when finally asked about this directly, Hirofumi Ichikawa confirmed that adding Logos to the Thirteen was never his intention when he created the character. He was just an Ancient like Japanese Vector Prime, not a 13er like English Vector Prime.
What's even weirder is the fact that he is still called Vector Prime even in the Japanese version, as opposed to something like Vector Convoy.
And speaking of the Japanese version, turns out Vector wasn't one of the Thirteen In Galaxy Force because the concept of the Thirteen wouldn't reach Japan until after Galaxy Force was over. So what he was in that version was instead a member of a similar but different group called the "Ancients".
At the time, English-speaking fans (myself included) simply interpreted the Ancients as being the same group as the Thirteen, just under a different name. This is how and why Vector Prime's fellow Ancient, Logos Prime, was misinterpreted by the English-speaking fans as another member of the Thirteen. He had "Prime" in his name and was said to be kin of Vector Prime, and even possessed similar cosmic powers. It's no wonder why Logos was mistaken for another member of the Thirteen. But when finally asked about this directly, Hirofumi Ichikawa confirmed that adding Logos to the Thirteen was never his intention when he created the character. He was just an Ancient like Japanese Vector Prime, not a 13er like English Vector Prime.
That's exactly how it was in the beginning. Only those who bore the Matrix were Primes, in a lineage dating back to the original Matrix bearer, Prima, who was the first Prime. While the rest of the Thirteen were all not Primes since they did not carry the Matrix like Prima did. But then Vector Prime came along as a concept and the rules got changed.
From the wiki's Covenant of Primus page:
Edit: Forgot to point out, this is also the order of the statues in the AotP artwork. Prima is first on the left, and it goes in order to Optimus at the right.
For me, the 13 are the first, most direct crations of Primus. The Matrix is a portion of his life force. So it makes sense to me that the Matrix is just an accessory for Prima, while it's something a little more special for all the standard Cybertronians who followed, capable of elevating one of them to the same sort of level as the Primes.
I don't like Optimus being one of the 13 because it changes both so much about his own origins, but also messes up everything established about Rodimus being Primus's chosen champion. It basically reads to me as just one more attempt to kick Rodimus down a few rungs and make Optimus be the real special one in his place.
That bugs me on one level just since I actually like Rodimus more than Optimus. But even more than that, it really pigeonholes Transformers in general. I like a lot of what goes into the general TF lore, being about this epic war between the Autobots and Decepticons. But it is, and should be, so much more than that. Putting Optimus as one of the 13 basically makes him the once and future king. He's not just a great leader who managed the war. He's now the absolute pinnacle of what Cybertronians ever were and ever can be. Basically, there is no moving past him. Which really sucks, since moving past him and everything associated with him is where a lot of the TF fiction I've most loved has come from.
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Sudden random throught: Does it though? Optimus might be the reincaration of Nobody Prime. All the others are known to be someone or something. Not 13. No definining traits, no defining artifact, no known tribe, etc. "He exists" is about all there is to him. If he's somebody, its becuase of his reincarnation and not that his reincarnation is somebody becuase of him.
That said, does it really take away from Rodimus? Nobody Prime was just the last and least notable of Primus' first creations. The one that anyone can claim to be, to the fact we have multiple that do claim that role. Rodimus is specifically the guy he chooses. So much so that he's literally crafted in Primus' own image. That would seem to top being part of the 13. If we go by Christian Lore, the 13 are Primus' angels, considering The Fallen is supposed to be Lucifer, more or less. But Rodimus would be closer to Jesus in this context, in that he's the "common" race but is special becuase God specifically chose him. Its not 1:1