Transformers Legacy toyline

[ZacWilliam1]

I miss Nebulans. They make the Masters so much better, because they give them built in story and character conflict. Bob wrote some great little personalities for those guys and not much got done with them ever.

I want a story about the Nebulan quarters on Scorponok's ship and the Steelhaven. Just slice of life stuff from the point of view of a dozen or so "humans" living on a ship of giant robots that they are bonded to.


-ZacWilliam, I think it's more likely they've been left out of modern stuff because they require you to set up Nebulos and explain their race and then explain them bonding to tfs and if you have limited story space it's easier to skip all that.

 

[Steevy Maximus]

-ZacWilliam, I think it's more likely they've been left out of modern stuff because they require you to set up Nebulos and explain their race and then explain them bonding to tfs and if you have limited story space it's easier to skip all that.

That and, as someone who has dabbled in fiction writing, it effectively DOUBLES the number of characters you have to deal with. For every Head, Target and Powermaster, you have to account for TWO characters.
That's a LOT to juggle with the already hefty cast loads most Transformers fiction deals with.

 

[unluckiness]

I think the tone of more serious character-driven storytelling would conflict too much with the inherently doofy gimmick. It also adds extra hoops to jump through when any interesting character interactions could be achieved more or less with just the Transformers. "Hahahaha The head and body don't get along" is good for maybe one or two stories, then just becomes cumbersome or another character quirk.

 

[Donocropolis]

Plus, it never really made much sense. I just can't imagine that having a smaller person be your handgun (or engine, or head, or whatever) would improve your combat abilities.

 

[The Mighty Mollusk]

I can sort of understand the head and engine as acting like copilots, letting the main Transformer focus on one thing while they partner works on another, expanding their processing power. Targetmasters were always silly. Even leaving out cases like Misfire where the partner just makes the problem worse.

 

[LordGigaIce]

That and, as someone who has dabbled in fiction writing, it effectively DOUBLES the number of characters you have to deal with. For every Head, Target and Powermaster, you have to account for TWO characters.
That's a LOT to juggle with the already hefty cast loads most Transformers fiction deals with.

Yeah. Just making the HM/TM the character and the body a mech cuts down on that to very helpful degrees. Hell even doing what the TR toyline did and implying the TMs were Armada Minicon-esque helper dudes helps because it's not like those types of characters are burdened with personality.

Economy of the page is a thing and I can see more than one writer going "yeah... no" at the prospect of every character being two characters.

 

[ZacWilliam1]

I'll say I love them all immensely and think they're great gimmicks that are really good fictional set ups.

Targetmasters are the easiest to understand imo. How many real life military vehicles have separate pilots/drivers and gunners. That's all Targetmasters are: dedicated gunners that leave the main robot free to focus on the environment. And since they're mentally linked they work in perfect harmony (theoretically).

Powermasters provide the power for the robot like an engine so that's easy to understand. It's not really touched on but being mentally linked could be like having a dedicated Engineer inside controlling your power systems like Geordi managing the Dilithium on the Enterprise.

Headmasters also make sense to me. Imagine having a pilot and copilot who are mentally linked and can handle two tasks at once while perfectly coordinated. Or imagine a dual-core processor. It lets them think faster, react faster and multi-task much better.


-ZacWilliam, and basically all of these give you a Main Character (the TF) and a companion character who can be a friend, or a co-worker, or a rival, or even an antagonist for them. The relationships between the TF and their Nebulan are no more limited than between any two Characters in fiction and that interpersonal drama is built into the gimmick in a really fun way full of story potential.

 

[Donocropolis]

I guess the Targetmasters work if you have them shoulder mounted or whatever as an additional gunner, like on Stepper, but when the main robot is holding them like a handgun and pointing them where they want to shoot, I have to wonder what the Nebulon contributes.

 

[CoffeeHorse]

It's an idea that maybe could be forced to make sense but quickly becomes convoluted.

I always preferred Takara's approach. For once, the Japanese G1 lore is simpler.

 

[Dekafox]

If they're mentally linked they could be taking control of the arm itself too. That would actually give a bigger benefit to the double targetmasters too - each one takes one arm, while the main bot concentrates on using the environment/dodging/etc.

A more relevant example of the power control thing would actually be the SRX in the various Super Robot Wars series. Rai, the pilot of the R-2 basically manages the Tronium engine in the combined form, as it's unstable and dangerous if pushed to the upper power levels necessary for the SRX to properly operate. (There's a reason the combination is named OOC - Only One Crash). Though actually being the power source is a bit different than managing an unstable reactor, micro-managing the power could be a way to make them more engaging than just basically napping on the chest/back of the bot while the transformer sucks their life force like a vampire.

 

[Cybersnark]

I guess the Targetmasters work if you have them shoulder mounted or whatever as an additional gunner, like on Stepper, but when the main robot is holding them like a handgun and pointing them where they want to shoot, I have to wonder what the Nebulon contributes.

Some of you have never played a video game with optional auto-aim, and it shows.

Just point the Targetmaster in the general direction of the target and let them adjust the barrel to line up the headshot for you.

The problem for me was always the Headmasters, not because you have two characters, but because you have two characters who are permanently fused. And how does the main body's consciousness work anyway? If Stylor walks away to do something Nebulan-sized, is Chromedome actually aware while he's sitting in a parking garage, or is he "unconscious," or his awareness riding along with Stylor looking through his eyes?

 

[lastmaximal]

For stuff like that I'd like something akin to the Energon Omega Supreme "solution", which is a sort of mini-head for the Cybertronian bulk to have. Would look silly though.

That's the trouble with the mental linking, is that some functionality almost has to be reduced on the part of the 'advanced alien robot' Cybertronian in order for the Nebulan/human/whatever partner to play a role. This includes self-driving and auto-aim (or even aim-assist).

Powermasters basically being Mini-Cons, providing a plug-in power focus and/or power boost, I can get with. Basically a battery/power bank, or even an adaptor -- could be acting as conversion engines, helping process an otherwise unusable power source in ways a native Cybertronian system can't.

Headmasters make sense if you're willing to shrug off the inherent "self-driving" nature of said advanced alien robots. Maybe the characters are younger and not yet able to intuitively nagivate effectively in altmode? But again, that's reducing functionality and autonomy. I do like the character dynamic of them having a copilot literally in their head, though, and there's fun story possibilities there that I kinda prefer to the otherwise-better Transtector solution.

Targetmasters IDK. Maybe if there were a mounted weapons system in altmode that they controlled (but see Headmasters, same problem). Or I guess the point of them could BE to arm an otherwise unarmed altmode. Again, like the Headmasters, there are possible story reasons that can be worked in to justify this -- the altmode disguise precludes weaponry, they're pacifists who avoided weapons initially, etc. But them controlling the firing arm in robot mode I'm not a fan of, as again that takes from one just to give the other a reason to be around. It would be interesting for a character like Misfire, who needs someone to take the wheel firing arm and of course hilarity ensues with Aimless, but that's... one pair out of several.

 

[LordGigaIce]

I'll say I love them all immensely and think they're great gimmicks that are really good fictional set ups.

Targetmasters are the easiest to understand imo. How many real life military vehicles have separate pilots/drivers and gunners. That's all Targetmasters are: dedicated gunners that leave the main robot free to focus on the environment. And since they're mentally linked they work in perfect harmony (theoretically).

Powermasters provide the power for the robot like an engine so that's easy to understand. It's not really touched on but being mentally linked could be like having a dedicated Engineer inside controlling your power systems like Geordi managing the Dilithium on the Enterprise.

Headmasters also make sense to me. Imagine having a pilot and copilot who are mentally linked and can handle two tasks at once while perfectly coordinated. Or imagine a dual-core processor. It lets them think faster, react faster and multi-task much better.


-ZacWilliam, and basically all of these give you a Main Character (the TF) and a companion character who can be a friend, or a co-worker, or a rival, or even an antagonist for them. The relationships between the TF and their Nebulan are no more limited than between any two Characters in fiction and that interpersonal drama is built into the gimmick in a really fun way full of story potential.

That's the problem though. They are no different than any two other characters which can balloon the cast.
Let's say you have a standard setup of a team of Autobots and Decepticons on Earth. So you have Megs and Optimus, and let's say three underlings each. That's four per side, eight over all, which is relatively standard as far as kids action adventure cartoons go.

Now say they're all US style Headmasters with human or Nebulan partners. That suddenly makes it eight per side, sixteen over all. That's a huge jump in number of character and character dynamics a writer needs to account for. You don't want anyone fading into the background for too long, you always want everyone to be at least somewhat visible in the narrative if possible, and this becomes harder as a writer the more characters you add.
An expanding show will always see new characters added naturally as stories progress but doubling everyone up inflates the process and can make the character roster unwieldy from a writing standpoint.

That's before you even get into the vague notion of how having the head and body be separate beings would work or how biological humans and/or humanoids would even transform into heads (or guns!) without snapping limbs in half or crushing torsos.

The Japanese G1 approach just... makes it all easier to deal with.

Some of you have never played a video game with optional auto-aim, and it shows.

Just point the Targetmaster in the general direction of the target and let them adjust the barrel to line up the headshot for you.

That's a mechanic that works in a video game, but the logic just doesn't translate to something like this.

First- most Transformers characters are soldiers who are depicted as fighting a long, drawn out war. Surely the trained soldiers are capable of aiming on their own without needing their gun to do it for them.

Secondly- Transformers aren't humans, they're robots. Shouldn't they have the programming and advanced eyesight necessary to "auto-aim" themselves? Why does the gun need to be a separate being to do this?

 

[Donocropolis]

That's a mechanic that works in a video game, but the logic just doesn't translate to something like this.

First- most Transformers characters are soldiers who are depicted as fighting a long, drawn out war. Surely the trained soldiers are capable of aiming on their own without needing their gun to do it for them.

Secondly- Transformers aren't humans, they're robots. Shouldn't they have the programming and advanced eyesight necessary to "auto-aim" themselves? Why does the gun need to be a separate being to do this?

It actually would make sense if the roles were reversed. A human (or Nebulan) running around with a sentient gun that, with it's mechanical sensors and precise movement control, can aim better than the squishy organism holding it makes a lot of sense. Reversing that so that the meatbag is doing the aiming doesn't feel right.

 

[Sabrblade]

It did always feel so dumb to me how "The Rebirth" presented the Headmaster partnership as the Nebulans shouting commands and advice from inside the Autobots' heads on how to defeat the Hive's machines, when said advice and commands just boiled down to "Punch and shoot the darn things really hard!", which any Auto-idiot could have figured out and done without the Nebulans' help.

 

[NovaSaber]

Another problem with the Headmasters being two characters in a version that has head-swapping is that...the large characters don't own their own faces.

To me, Chromedome's head on Highbrow's body looks like it should be Chromedome.
If it's not, because the head itself is Stylor, that makes head-swapping visually confusing.

 

[lastmaximal]

It did always feel so dumb to me how "The Rebirth" presented the Headmaster partnership as the Nebulans shouting commands and advice from inside the Autobots' heads on how to defeat the Hive's machines, when said advice and commands just boiled down to "Punch and shoot the darn things really hard!", which any Auto-idiot could have figured out and done without the Nebulans' help.

Seems par for the course with Rebirth really.

Although I do recall one moment where Brainstorm is fighting and/or panicking and Arcana thinks to scan the Nebulan that Brainstorm has grabbed a hold of.

To this day one of the best things about it is just Peter Cullen's sheer exasperated (and the cut off) "Alpha Trion... (Pause)... That makes NO SENSE!"

 

[Rhinox]

I understand headmasters. Especially the decepticon ones. I can see, say Weirdwolf, just lounging around, napping like an animal would while his headmaster goes off and does stuff. Likewise, an autobot headmaster clearing a building while the vehicle and its onboard weaponry is outside providing backup. There are circumstances where it could be easier to write. As far as when they're bonded, look at the modern Tony Stark. Either personality in charge of the body with the other acting as onboard AI.

Targetmasters serve dual purpose, IMO. As others have said, there's aim assist. The argument that they're robots and their shooting should be perfect would make for a very short war story. Even trained and hardened soldiers miss. As we've humanized the robots as characters, lets give them some human flaws, like some having piss poor aim. In addition, a smaller companion who could clear bolt holes and other smaller places would be invaluable in a guerilla war. Plus, a gun that comes back should you be disarmed would be hella handy to have.

 

[lastmaximal]

I'm with you on the other storytelling benefits of having a smaller partner in that sense.

The aiming thing, I'm still iffy on. In order for that benefit to really be demonstrable, you'd have to show (say) Targetmaster Autobots whose onboard weapons hit targets in altmode with regular ones missing, or missing more often. Or make missing a plot point or issue where it never was, really.I mean, in these stories, no one really hits anyone unless the plot calls for it anyway; we tend to see wounded after a battle, but the specifics of who hit or who missed are rarely significant.

Probably simpler to just say the Targetmasters are secondary partner weapons that can fire autonomously in weapon mode (whether mounted or hovering by themselves). If they're, say, shoulder mounted in robot mode they can do that too. Could just sidestep the aim assist bit. Or, I don't know, make the assist for other types of things. Longer range vision. Steady servos for sniping. Power boost for ranged shots. Confidence boosting encouragement. Some of that could still be handicapping the main Cybertronian so their partner could be useful, but I'm sure it can be written well.

The Headmaster beasts don't have as much of an issue in altmode since they have beast mode heads and are ambulatory on more than just wheels or hovering in midair. But I do like the division of labor for the Autobot Headmasters there.

 

[Platypus Prime]

I find it easiest to write Headmaster characters if I assume there's no air holes in the heads. That way after a while you don't have to write the other speech balloon anymore. There's a funny SMELL that lingers for a while, but if everyone's a robot and there's not much atmosphere on Cybertron, this may go unnoticed for quite some time and honestly isn't the sort of thing most fiction lingers on anyway.

It also solves the problem of what to do after that first transformation, since the initial speech balloon is always "GAH! MY KNEES!!" and a lot of screaming, it's pretty repetitive and it's best to move past it as soon as you can.