Star Trek General Discussion

Dekafox

Fabulously Foxy Dragon
Citizen
Like Wonko said, most of the time when they're stealing an Enterprise, all they need is to get from point A to point B for a relatively short amount of time, typically in an emergency, and don't need much more than that and/or short term combat capability. You only need a limited number of systems working at full efficiency for that, and you'd expect the combat ones to have enough redundancies for if something breaks to immediately spin up redundancies. That's why it seems they can always get away with a small number of crew(outside of plot convenience) - there's no need for all the regular maintenance these ships probably need before it slowly cascades into failure as minor problems become major. Murphy is always watching, and even if you try to rely on drones, those drones will need their own maintenance, and we all know how technology never has bugs or problems of it's own.

As for non-engineering staff, you need manpower for landing and exploring things an making decisions on the spot. You could probably replace some of that with drones, but I don't think it would help First Contact at all. Honestly, A lot of them and the Science crew is probably partly there for their creativity, as the computer on most ships is not designed to have initiative of its own, to come up with off-the-wall solutions. Of course giving them initiative doesn't always work out, like the Texas Class, so it could also simply be to make sure the gazorninplatz radiation doesn't make the ship suddenly start a intergalactic incident or that the ship doesn't decide the best way to solve the problem of a colony infected with Space COVID is to wipe out all life there before the colonists can spread it elsewhere.
 
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Cybersnark

Well-known member
Citizen
Also note that starships have to carry at least three times their necessary crew (because someone has to man the ship while the command crew is asleep).

(Not Star Trek, but in the old Star Wars RPG there were rules for running a ship on a skeleton crew; they involved everything on the ship being run at a penalty, so you can still do most things, but it's now twice or three times as difficult. That seems like a sufficiently realistic way of thinking about things [while remembering that the kind of people who successfully steal starships tend to be highly competent and experienced, and working with a ship that they know intimately].)

As for the replicators, remember that there may just be a practical concern; replicators tend to be pretty small (we've heard about larger industrial replicators, but I don't think we've actually seen one onscreen, so we can't know for certain how big they are), so it may not be possible to replicate large items. Instead you produce a bunch of components that have to be assembled like a kit.
 

Ungnome

Grand Empress of the Empire of One Square Foot.
Citizen
Not so sure of that, at least on Federation ships. Kirk was able to take a heavily damaged constitution refit out of space dock and all the way to the former location of the Mutara Nebula with just an engineer, helmsman, navigator and a somewhat incapacitated MD. Federation starships have good AI automation systems. The bulk of the crew is their mostly for maintainence, research and defense.
 

The Predaking

Administrator
Staff member
Council of Elders
Citizen
Ok, saw the return of the mutants I'm Chrysalis. They really need a spin off, dang it. I only fault Jack for dragging broken glass over his watcher's hand in his first ep. It was a sweet story about the catatonic lady but, aw man, I thought their return would be some bombastic save-the-galaxy caper of some significant import to the Dominion War. Oh well. Still, cool to see them again.

The new Dax is cute enough. Jadzia's actress really wanted less scenes in season 7? Aaaaaw but, well, respect her wishes.

The baseball game was ok. Manufactured victory is ok since they would never win again the vulcans.

Also, thanks to you guys for all the info! I keep going through the eps and reach a new point of interest but I appreciate reading all the info about details I miss.

--- Edit

Nog just lost his leg? He can have a replacement, right? This is the future. He can get a new one.

The baseball game is one of those weird episodes that they have to break the tension in this season. I do however, love that Sisko has a Starfleet rival.

There is an entire episode about Nog's leg coming up.
 

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
The point being: yes, they could absolutely use the replicator to create "perfected" tools and machines. No user serviceable parts, when broken, please recycle at nearest replicator. They don't though. They still design and implement parts like the end user is intended to open them up, rearrange the guts, and duct tape it back together. But that's what you get when you don't exist in a society that worries more about the value of the intellectual property over how it's used... and when you can trust the population not to abuse the intellectual property. When no one is rushing to generate wealth to ensure they remain above poverty: the population doesn't worry about how to make the quickest buck possible and the corporations (and they do still exist in trek.) honestly don't care about safeguarding the bottom line and only the bottom line. In that state: the population functionally becomes part of the dev team. You give credit where due, and changes made by enterprising nobodies get implemented because the company isn't paying out royalties on circuit designs and software, and the people are literally just after bragging rights; "I made a change that influenced the entire world and beyond".
I think the user-serviceable technology is a very good way to visually represent the ethos you're describing, which is nearly identical to FOSS or the maker movement, which I think further is both very based and very Star Trek.

I do not agree, just as a matter of sci-spec, that it would actually look like that. I think anyone with any engineering interest at all and want to improve or repurpose a small device or component would have a replicator at home that could do tech stuff, and would make their modifications to a hologram and print the results.

We could have a Star Trek economy today if we abolished the police, ate the rich, declared IP null and void, instituted UBI, and implemented worker democracy in all workplaces, but that's a completely whole other everything not to be explored here.

Like Wonko said, most of the time when they're stealing an Enterprise, all they need is to get from point A to point B for a relatively short amount of time, typically in an emergency, and don't need much more than that and/or short term combat capability. You only need a limited number of systems working at full efficiency for that, and you'd expect the combat ones to have enough redundancies for if something breaks to immediately spin up redundancies. That's why it seems they can always get away with a small number of crew(outside of plot convenience) - there's no need for all the regular maintenance these ships probably need before it slowly cascades into failure as minor problems become major. Murphy is always watching, and even if you try to rely on drones, those drones will need their own maintenance, and we all know how technology never has bugs or problems of it's own.

As for non-engineering staff, you need manpower for landing and exploring things an making decisions on the spot. You could probably replace some of that with drones, but I don't think it would help First Contact at all. Honestly, A lot of them and the Science crew is probably partly there for their creativity, as the computer on most ships is not designed to have initiative of its own, to come up with off-the-wall solutions. Of course giving them initiative doesn't always work out, like the Texas Class, so it could also simply be to make sure the gazorninplatz radiation doesn't make the ship suddenly start a intergalactic incident or that the ship doesn't decide the best way to solve the problem of a colony infected with Space COVID is to wipe out all life there before the colonists can spread it elsewhere.
I feel like things like the Texas Class are the handwave by which the rest is supported but there is an undeniable truth to the idea that if a job needs a human intelligence, then any AI that does the job will either be bad at it, or will be intelligent enough to qualify as a sapient being anyway.

It's also a valid point as Cybersnark says that operational staff have three shifts and you need people to cover all of them, even though we only ever see the one bridge crew on their 9-5. Maintenance has crews and engineering has a whole team of its own standing around pushing buttons under normal conditions. If a third of the crew on shift at any given time is fixing things and emptying biofilters, I guess engineering and bridge crew could get most of the way to 100, and maybe the rest are doing science stuff we never hear about or something.

I also think the fact that fancy flying, security, ship repair, and medical care are the things that we see the crew actually doing much of the time are not so much because those things are particularly well suited to humans over machines, but because they are very well suited to television. The now obligatory pilot role carved out by Tom Paris especially, since by all rights the computer should be so much better at it than a human that the computer might as well be asking for help on its math homework, but security should also be a complete nonissue when the ship has internal sensors and force fields that by all rights ought to be able to detain anyone on board instantly and indefinitely on command.

And no one wants to watch researchers researching.

I don't know, I still think that Deep Space Nine had a magic formula that's just not available to any of these other shows, since every member of the cast had a specific job and those jobs could be very diverse thanks to the setting being more like a little town and not something that we have to conceptualize as being sort of like a navy ship. (And once in a while we even hear about the other shifts.) To think of it, Voyager had something too - you don't have to ask why anyone on the ship is there, they're there to get home.

Anyway, if a sizeable fraction of the crew complement of a Starfleet ship under normal operation is actually a whole science department faculty, or random art students self-bettering themselves or whatnot, I kinda want to know about it and see what that actually looks like.
 

wonko the sane?

You may test that assumption at your convinience.
Citizen
DS9 has a whole factor where there is an entire, LARGER population which is not just civilian: but also not star fleet related, or even associated with the federation. On the enterprise, everyone is there because they want to be THERE. Doing that job; exploring, researching, fixing problems and such. Some of them went out of their way to request family along with them, and given the percentage of the fleet whom are actually serving on SHIPS, never mind one in particular, it's a tall ask.

Pick out three rando's coming through the airlock at DS9. 1 is bajoran militia shuttling in as a replacement. 2 is literally just some guy who needed to pull over for a pit stop and repair, before hitting the road again, 3 is there for "business" and is getting REAL ******* antsy over all the questions. You get a much more massive slice of the picture of the galaxy at large than you do just rolling around on a federation ship, in federation space, doing federation stuff.

And as for the texas class (hi badgy!) remember that they did try plugging data in the ship once (on purpose even! I'm looking at you quantum filament.), and... hooboy it did not go well. They could probably scratch build a positronic brain big enough to independently run a good sized starship: but you would also hit the same wall that almost made data quit the fleet, and oh yeah the daystrom institute has an entire division to house meglomaniacal rogue AI's.
 

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
DS9 has a whole factor where there is an entire, LARGER population which is not just civilian: but also not star fleet related, or even associated with the federation. On the enterprise, everyone is there because they want to be THERE. Doing that job; exploring, researching, fixing problems and such. Some of them went out of their way to request family along with them, and given the percentage of the fleet whom are actually serving on SHIPS, never mind one in particular, it's a tall ask.

Pick out three rando's coming through the airlock at DS9. 1 is bajoran militia shuttling in as a replacement. 2 is literally just some guy who needed to pull over for a pit stop and repair, before hitting the road again, 3 is there for "business" and is getting REAL ******* antsy over all the questions. You get a much more massive slice of the picture of the galaxy at large than you do just rolling around on a federation ship, in federation space, doing federation stuff.
Yeah, I get that, I do. It's funny because I remember people complaining when Deep Space Nine launched that the crew was going to be "stuck" on a station instead of exploring (a concern I assume quieted down in S3 when they have a ship and go explore some things.) But having a sense of place meant that for the first time in a Trek series, the "geography" of space mattered and some other places and peoples were closer or further away, and not being a regimented Starfleet operation meant that those people from elsewhere were constantly coming and going and part of the life of the station. There's a whole different set of limitations you take on when the entire recurring cast have to all live on the same ship. SNW is doing some neat things with Starbase 1 and Batel, but I wonder if there's a way to get some of that dynamism of different communities we have some stake in interacting and things.

Plus I just really want to see what happens when the ship has a "the astrophysics department", possibly in a feud with the archeology department.

And as for the texas class (hi badgy!) remember that they did try plugging data in the ship once (on purpose even! I'm looking at you quantum filament.), and... hooboy it did not go well. They could probably scratch build a positronic brain big enough to independently run a good sized starship: but you would also hit the same wall that almost made data quit the fleet, and oh yeah the daystrom institute has an entire division to house meglomaniacal rogue AI's.
I remember joking during Picard S3 that instead of Lore and Moriarty (before we knew it was DataLore and a memory projection) the BBEG should be a Peanut Hamper and Badgy teamup, but increasingly I wish that really happened. Honestly I just want to see the four of them in a room together.

Like in part it's a joke, right, because the only point of introducing a crazy advanced AI into your story is for it to turn evil. Just like the only reason to have a story that happens in the holodeck is because it's going to malfunction and trap the crew. Only a tiny fraction of private single-engine Cesnas flying over the Alaskan wilds malfunction and crash leading a harrowing survival experience for the passengers having to adapt to their environment without the aid of society and technology and beat the odds to live until they're finally rescued, but all of the ones that there are movies about do so. There's not a really good reason in universe for all ship AIs to turn megalomaniacal, but they sure do that, every time.

Sapient ships (which notably wouldn't need to be mostly empty space) definitely seem plausible in Trek, though, just not in Starfleet. Like I don't think it would be beyond reason for one of the Soong family to decide to become a starship with that double-magic replicator tech they have, which would be incredibly handy for all that self-maintenance, and just go explore the universe for themselves, like a less Braniacal V'Ger. We do know that Starfleet, though, has and maintains rules about intelligent ships within its own fleet up to the thirty-first century, and Zora seems to be the only one that exists in the future present.
 

wonko the sane?

You may test that assumption at your convinience.
Citizen
Let's be fair here to starfleet: data and the doctor are just about the only examples of machine life... not being a psychotic monster. Almost every other instance was either malfunction, wanton misinterpretation, or the expression of the very worst of biological tendencies. I don't think starfleet routinely over-reacts, so rules regarding machine life (at any scale. Cause those nanobots were pretty ******* petty.) are necessarily a bad idea.

And, ultimately, rules exist to be broken by being proven wrong. Once there's enough expressions of machine life that aren't interested in playing god, I'm sure they'll strike down or re-write the rules.
 

Ungnome

Grand Empress of the Empire of One Square Foot.
Citizen
Heck, between V'Ger, Nomad, the Doomsday Machine, and the Whale Probe, I'm sure Star Fleet has a healthy skepticism towards AI drone ships even BEFORE taking in any of the stuff the recent shows have introduced.
 

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
And notably M-5, the other time Starfleet tried doing it with one of their own ships, which the Texas Class directly references in a visual easter egg.
 

Dekafox

Fabulously Foxy Dragon
Citizen
There's also the issue of manual backups if the computer gets compromised - when you have things running around like the "Living Machine" virus from Prodigy and the Iconian virus weapons, it doesn't hurt to have an entity around who's not affected by those and can kick off reboots or purges, or override the controls when the fizzlewizzle radiation of the week disrupts the computer's higher functions.

On the other hand, when something gives the biological crew a negative space wedgie, it is useful to have a machine intelligence NOT affected by that to take over. In a vaccuum, you'd probably want them working together, ala Zora and the Discovery crew, or the Doctor and the Voyager crew, to cover all the various situations. Maybe even require a few of the more out-there species on every ship just in case, like Horta(silicon-based) or non-insane STO Hur'q(Germanium-based), as a third line of defense.
 

Cybersnark

Well-known member
Citizen
Sapient ships (which notably wouldn't need to be mostly empty space) definitely seem plausible in Trek, though, just not in Starfleet.
Something I noticed in the novels; there've been at least two small (one-person) civilian ships with highly Turing-capable computers (one of them was explicitly self-aware and independent-minded, the other may just have been a thoroughly-programmed interface).

It could be just a random coincidence, but you know what Dr. Doofenshmirtz says.

(Notably, one of these ships belonged to Dr. Soong, though the books are unclear on whether she was his "daughter" or just a mass-production AI that he'd customized.)
 

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
There's also the issue of manual backups if the computer gets compromised - when you have things running around like the "Living Machine" virus from Prodigy and the Iconian virus weapons, it doesn't hurt to have an entity around who's not affected by those and can kick off reboots or purges, or override the controls when the fizzlewizzle radiation of the week disrupts the computer's higher functions.

On the other hand, when something gives the biological crew a negative space wedgie, it is useful to have a machine intelligence NOT affected by that to take over. In a vaccuum, you'd probably want them working together, ala Zora and the Discovery crew, or the Doctor and the Voyager crew, to cover all the various situations. Maybe even require a few of the more out-there species on every ship just in case, like Horta(silicon-based) or non-insane STO Hur'q(Germanium-based), as a third line of defense.
Though to be fair, when the plot demands it, the alien interphasic bioneural library virus artifact anomaly pheromones can also just affect Data or Odo or whoever really shouldn't have a susceptible physiology regardless, such as when the episode isn't the type where one person is immune and has to save the rest of the crew, or when it is, but they want to use a different focus character this week.

Well, I guess it's arguable how "fair" that is. In any case, it really does make logical sense that a crew diverse in this sense is susceptible to fewer vulnerabilities. = ]
 

Fero McPigletron

Feel the fear!
Citizen
The baseball game is one of those weird episodes that they have to break the tension in this season. I do however, love that Sisko has a Starfleet rival.

There is an entire episode about Nog's leg coming up.
See, that would have been cooler if that rival appeared earlier, so we'd look forward to seeing more shenanigans when he comes back. Like, they could have had a cooking competition! That would have been amazing!

Haven't seen new eps but I'm worried about Nog now.

Actually just posting cuz I saw a comment that the Krull actor was in DS9 and I had to look it up and it was Eddington?!? The Marquis agent?!?

I thought he got cool when he revealed himself as the traitor and I'm sorry he got killed. Dang, he should have grown facial hair and maybe worn a hat to match his Krull look. And maybe wielded a glaive weapon, haha
 

wonko the sane?

You may test that assumption at your convinience.
Citizen
Though to be fair, when the plot demands it, the alien interphasic bioneural library virus artifact anomaly pheromones can also just affect Data or Odo or whoever really shouldn't have a susceptible physiology regardless, such as when the episode isn't the type where one person is immune and has to save the rest of the crew, or when it is, but they want to use a different focus character this week.

Well, I guess it's arguable how "fair" that is. In any case, it really does make logical sense that a crew diverse in this sense is susceptible to fewer vulnerabilities. = ]
Not fewer, just significantly DIFFERENT vulnerabilities.
 

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
Not fewer, just significantly DIFFERENT vulnerabilities.
Sorry, I didn't phrase that very clearly - I meant the crew as whole, not individuals. Individuals would have more and different vulnerabilities, but fewer single points of failure for the entire crew (like, say, oxygen.)

Also that hallucination flashback of Sisko with the social commentary story about black guys writing in the past probably had me seeing Worf and Odo out of make up. Weird seeing Worf without facial hair. Didn't recognize him at first. Then Jake had a mustache, haha. And he got killed. Quark's face, I know from Buffy already. Would have been fun to see Rom or Nog or any Ferengi actors there.
You got way ahead of me, I only just watched "Far Beyond the Stars". Goddamn that was an episode. I barely remembered it at all from my last watch. "Benny" seeing the flashes of the Cardassians as he's beat down was a "whoa" moment for me, and that ending hit so hard.

I didn't remember seeing Michael Dorn, Armin Shimerman, and René Auberjonois out of makeup, and honestly I've never really paid much attention to any behind the scenes stuff, so I only recognized Auberjonois before he spoke and that's because I'd looked him up recently. It's cool that they got an episode out of makeup like that. I like how some characters were basically still themselves like Kasidy and to some extent Kira, Quark was a completely different character with no real connection to his Deep Space Nine self, and Odo was ... ambiguously and tellingly not too far from his usual self.

Powerful stuff though, maybe undercut a little by the Zhuangzi butterfly thing at the end between Sisko and his dad, like the trick was revealing that we're watching a TV show, which I feel like I already knew. I'm biased I guess, I despise "what if it was all a dream" except as a St. Elsewhere joke. Everything up to that point though felt like, yeah, we're going to step out of the show for a minute to get very real, and remind you what you're supposed to do with this series and also this franchise. Faaaaa that's some good jive.

"One Little Ship" is next, definitely a shift to something lighter for next time....
 

The Predaking

Administrator
Staff member
Council of Elders
Citizen
See, that would have been cooler if that rival appeared earlier, so we'd look forward to seeing more shenanigans when he comes back. Like, they could have had a cooking competition! That would have been amazing!

Haven't seen new eps but I'm worried about Nog now.

Actually just posting cuz I saw a comment that the Krull actor was in DS9 and I had to look it up and it was Eddington?!? The Marquis agent?!?

I thought he got cool when he revealed himself as the traitor and I'm sorry he got killed. Dang, he should have grown facial hair and maybe worn a hat to match his Krull look. And maybe wielded a glaive weapon, haha
Yeah, I didn't know that it was him until I rewatched last time. He does a great job with the role, and I like the way that he goes out, saving his people.
 

Fero McPigletron

Feel the fear!
Citizen
I'm on the last stretch of seven eps of DS9. Just had to post cuz of the evil development with Kai Winn. So disgusting. Dukat really does believe in the pah wraiths, so weird. Oh, can see how he looks like without the Cardassian make up.

Kasidy marriage is ok. They're sweet together. I'd say the wormhole aliens are saving Sisko to marry another wormhole rep buuuut since there's no new female being introduced, probably not.

I'm blurg on them focusing on Ezri Dax, Worf and Bashir right near the end. Maybe they're building this up like that s6 finale where one of them does.

I'm disappointed that the changelings aren't a big deal anymore since they're dying. I loved their infiltration of earth. Now it seems to be Breem.

Yeah, I'm past Nog's leg recovery by building a life in the Holo. Cool on Vic Fontaine but it found it scary if he's operating 26 hours a day.
 

The Predaking

Administrator
Staff member
Council of Elders
Citizen
I'm on the last stretch of seven eps of DS9. Just had to post cuz of the evil development with Kai Winn. So disgusting. Dukat really does believe in the pah wraiths, so weird. Oh, can see how he looks like without the Cardassian make up.

Kasidy marriage is ok. They're sweet together. I'd say the wormhole aliens are saving Sisko to marry another wormhole rep buuuut since there's no new female being introduced, probably not.

I'm blurg on them focusing on Ezri Dax, Worf and Bashir right near the end. Maybe they're building this up like that s6 finale where one of them does.

I'm disappointed that the changelings aren't a big deal anymore since they're dying. I loved their infiltration of earth. Now it seems to be Breem.

Yeah, I'm past Nog's leg recovery by building a life in the Holo. Cool on Vic Fontaine but it found it scary if he's operating 26 hours a day.

Dukat really is the best Star Trek villain of all time. Kai Winn is only out shinned by him.

The marriage with Kasidy, I can't say anything on until the show is over, but I can say that they aren't wanting him to mate with a prophet.

Changelings are still around, they just can't infiltrate anything anymore due to the virus. The Breem definitely hit hard when they joined the war.

Nog's recovery episode was great to me. I loved how he got lost in old school Vegas and how he thrived in it. Vic's realization that he had to kick Nog out to fully recover was a great moment between the two of them. Have you seen the episode where Sisko finally goes to Vic's yet?
 

Fero McPigletron

Feel the fear!
Citizen
I'm surprised with Dukat cuz I thought he was practically redeemed with his daughter. Then she died, geez. Gonna be weird that the show will be ending with him having a different look.

I'm at the point where Bashir realizes that Section 31 and that guy Sloan is responsible for the changeling virus. I'm actually not fond of the Section 31 idea since it seemed like it came out of nowhere yet seems so powerful.

Worf also fought for a chancellor seat and gave it away? Would have been nice if he ended the show on a higher position.

There seems to be a lack of Quark in the final eps. That's... Ok?

Nog being happy was great then the program blanking out hurt, yeah. Yeah, they had that heist movie with Sisko joining in and him throwing money around, haha. Also saw the part where Martok talked about his Tarq running away. And I realize I've seen a Tarq before! In that Lower Decks ep where a Tarq pet helps his dogsitter win a fight on the bridge, hehe
 


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